Red Mosquito

tree_ wrote:

wease wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:What Trans values do you feel children in this country are being indoctrinated with? Are you afraid they're going to turn your children trans?

Again, there are many people voicing their concern over indoctrination, and it should be completely within their right to do so without being demonized. I do not know how justified their concern is.

But you won't ever say what your actual concern is...

Also, explain how it's reasonable to compare a gender identity to a religion. Is that not apples and oranges?

My concern is the all too prevalent demonization of others for having different, yet valid opinions from yours; loud voices drowning out the timid ones.

It's reasonable to compare them because with both ideologies, some people disagree and don't want them pushed onto their children.

Please, for the love of God, articulate an actual opinion.

Don't indoctrinate children; educate them.

Just not with the stuff you disagree with, right? As long as it conforms to what tree_ demands should be taught, it’s “education.” If it disagrees, it’s indoctrination.

tree_ DeSantis believes slavery is ok. Thus, teaching about the Civil War in any way that doesn’t favor the South and stand up for slavery is “indoctrination” and therefore not allowed.

Again, there is a fine line between education and indoctrination. Teach them everything, about all religions, transgenderism (at an appropriate age), and allow them to decide for themselves whether or not a God exists or if they're actually the opposite sex/gender.

So you're arguing against a strawman?

Or do you really believe that teachers are teaching kids that they're actually the opposite gender?

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

wease wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:What Trans values do you feel children in this country are being indoctrinated with? Are you afraid they're going to turn your children trans?

Again, there are many people voicing their concern over indoctrination, and it should be completely within their right to do so without being demonized. I do not know how justified their concern is.

But you won't ever say what your actual concern is...

Also, explain how it's reasonable to compare a gender identity to a religion. Is that not apples and oranges?

My concern is the all too prevalent demonization of others for having different, yet valid opinions from yours; loud voices drowning out the timid ones.

It's reasonable to compare them because with both ideologies, some people disagree and don't want them pushed onto their children.

Please, for the love of God, articulate an actual opinion.

Don't indoctrinate children; educate them.

Just not with the stuff you disagree with, right? As long as it conforms to what tree_ demands should be taught, it’s “education.” If it disagrees, it’s indoctrination.

tree_ DeSantis believes slavery is ok. Thus, teaching about the Civil War in any way that doesn’t favor the South and stand up for slavery is “indoctrination” and therefore not allowed.

Again, there is a fine line between education and indoctrination. Teach them everything, about all religions, transgenderism (at an appropriate age), and allow them to decide for themselves whether or not a God exists or if they're actually the opposite sex/gender.

So you're arguing against a strawman?

Or do you really believe that teachers are teaching kids that they're actually the opposite gender?

I do not know the extent to which children are being indoctrinated.

B wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:Mr. Yang's very unhelpful political snark aside, hopefully this is eye-opening for some folks:

Social transition at 11
Puberty blockers and hormones at 12
Double mastectomy at 13
Detransition at 17

Acknowledging lobotomies, which I hope we can agree are not a good thing, since the start of modern times... let's say the start of the 20th century... has there been anything else like this done to children to treat identity based or psychological struggles? What is the precedent for this arguably extreme level of treatment in minors?

You want us to be shocked by the ages, which I'm not. I'm not sure how you could argue giving a 13yr old a mastectomy is an outlier. But why are you not more concerned with this? "However, the lawsuit alleges that the defendants failed to sufficiently evaluate or treat her mental health symptoms, and instead affirmed her self-diagnosed transgender identity without thorough evaluation."

I think we can all get behind better clinical and counseling support prior to surgery, even if we're not ready to eliminate gender-affirming care based on Kayla's experience.

Also, I'm not sure I'm ready to equate voluntary mastectomies to lobotomies?

It's not an outlier and that's the problem because 13 year olds are not developmentally capable of consenting to permanent life-altering surgery like a voluntary double mastectomy.

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

wease wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:What Trans values do you feel children in this country are being indoctrinated with? Are you afraid they're going to turn your children trans?

Again, there are many people voicing their concern over indoctrination, and it should be completely within their right to do so without being demonized. I do not know how justified their concern is.

But you won't ever say what your actual concern is...

Also, explain how it's reasonable to compare a gender identity to a religion. Is that not apples and oranges?

My concern is the all too prevalent demonization of others for having different, yet valid opinions from yours; loud voices drowning out the timid ones.

It's reasonable to compare them because with both ideologies, some people disagree and don't want them pushed onto their children.

Please, for the love of God, articulate an actual opinion.

Don't indoctrinate children; educate them.

Just not with the stuff you disagree with, right? As long as it conforms to what tree_ demands should be taught, it’s “education.” If it disagrees, it’s indoctrination.

tree_ DeSantis believes slavery is ok. Thus, teaching about the Civil War in any way that doesn’t favor the South and stand up for slavery is “indoctrination” and therefore not allowed.

Again, there is a fine line between education and indoctrination. Teach them everything, about all religions, transgenderism (at an appropriate age), and allow them to decide for themselves whether or not a God exists or if they're actually the opposite sex/gender.

So you're arguing against a strawman?

Or do you really believe that teachers are teaching kids that they're actually the opposite gender?

I do not know the extent to which children are being indoctrinated.

Do you frequently get upset about things you aren't sure are happening?

What are kids being taught w/ regards to transgenderism in schools? Are they being taught something beyond mere transgender acceptance? Is it widespread, or limited to a few areas? Is the program relatively uniform, or highly varied from school to school? Are there other, broader ideas regarding sex and gender also being packaged in, or is it razor focused specifically around the subject? Is it conceivable that parents could be critical of the programs and assertions made without being a bigot, or is bigotry inherent to any criticism of how these things are taught in schools?

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

wease wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:What Trans values do you feel children in this country are being indoctrinated with? Are you afraid they're going to turn your children trans?

Again, there are many people voicing their concern over indoctrination, and it should be completely within their right to do so without being demonized. I do not know how justified their concern is.

But you won't ever say what your actual concern is...

Also, explain how it's reasonable to compare a gender identity to a religion. Is that not apples and oranges?

My concern is the all too prevalent demonization of others for having different, yet valid opinions from yours; loud voices drowning out the timid ones.

It's reasonable to compare them because with both ideologies, some people disagree and don't want them pushed onto their children.

Please, for the love of God, articulate an actual opinion.

Don't indoctrinate children; educate them.

Just not with the stuff you disagree with, right? As long as it conforms to what tree_ demands should be taught, it’s “education.” If it disagrees, it’s indoctrination.

tree_ DeSantis believes slavery is ok. Thus, teaching about the Civil War in any way that doesn’t favor the South and stand up for slavery is “indoctrination” and therefore not allowed.

Again, there is a fine line between education and indoctrination. Teach them everything, about all religions, transgenderism (at an appropriate age), and allow them to decide for themselves whether or not a God exists or if they're actually the opposite sex/gender.

So you're arguing against a strawman?

Or do you really believe that teachers are teaching kids that they're actually the opposite gender?

I do not know the extent to which children are being indoctrinated.

Do you frequently get upset about things you aren't sure are happening?

I'm not upset. I'm saying people voicing concerns may be reasonable. I agree with what Burt just said.

Bi_3 wrote:

B wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:Mr. Yang's very unhelpful political snark aside, hopefully this is eye-opening for some folks:

Social transition at 11
Puberty blockers and hormones at 12
Double mastectomy at 13
Detransition at 17

Acknowledging lobotomies, which I hope we can agree are not a good thing, since the start of modern times... let's say the start of the 20th century... has there been anything else like this done to children to treat identity based or psychological struggles? What is the precedent for this arguably extreme level of treatment in minors?

You want us to be shocked by the ages, which I'm not. I'm not sure how you could argue giving a 13yr old a mastectomy is an outlier. But why are you not more concerned with this? "However, the lawsuit alleges that the defendants failed to sufficiently evaluate or treat her mental health symptoms, and instead affirmed her self-diagnosed transgender identity without thorough evaluation."

I think we can all get behind better clinical and counseling support prior to surgery, even if we're not ready to eliminate gender-affirming care based on Kayla's experience.

Also, I'm not sure I'm ready to equate voluntary mastectomies to lobotomies?

It's not an outlier and that's the problem because 13 year olds are not developmentally capable of consenting to permanent life-altering surgery like a voluntary double mastectomy.

So, 776 mastectomies for kids 13-17 in 2021. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... youth-data

How could surgeries under 15 be anything but a rare occurrence?

Other than the two cases mentioned in your article, are there any? You'd need parental permission and an assessment from a surgeon that you have decisional capacity. And it's not like you just walk into a surgeon's office. That kid would have to talk to a counselor who referred them to a doctor who referred them to a surgeon who most likely discusses this case with the hospital legal counsel. And ALL those people would have to be convinced that this was the right course of action, and none of them would be unless less-invasive treatments have at least been attempted first.

B wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

B wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:Mr. Yang's very unhelpful political snark aside, hopefully this is eye-opening for some folks:

Social transition at 11
Puberty blockers and hormones at 12
Double mastectomy at 13
Detransition at 17

Acknowledging lobotomies, which I hope we can agree are not a good thing, since the start of modern times... let's say the start of the 20th century... has there been anything else like this done to children to treat identity based or psychological struggles? What is the precedent for this arguably extreme level of treatment in minors?

You want us to be shocked by the ages, which I'm not. I'm not sure how you could argue giving a 13yr old a mastectomy is an outlier. But why are you not more concerned with this? "However, the lawsuit alleges that the defendants failed to sufficiently evaluate or treat her mental health symptoms, and instead affirmed her self-diagnosed transgender identity without thorough evaluation."

I think we can all get behind better clinical and counseling support prior to surgery, even if we're not ready to eliminate gender-affirming care based on Kayla's experience.

Also, I'm not sure I'm ready to equate voluntary mastectomies to lobotomies?

It's not an outlier and that's the problem because 13 year olds are not developmentally capable of consenting to permanent life-altering surgery like a voluntary double mastectomy.

So, 776 mastectomies for kids 13-17 in 2021. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/sp ... youth-data

How could surgeries under 15 be anything but a rare occurrence?

Other than the two cases mentioned in your article, are there any?

You said it was not an outlier (bolded above) and I agreed given the hundreds that are done per year, but hospitals, clinics, and private practices don't report this data so we don't actually know the numbers.

You also scolded me with that HRC "facts about affirmative care" link that said the following:

"Transgender children are not undergoing irreversible medical changes."

"Hormone therapy and surgical care are not offered to young people, but reserved for those who can give truly informed consent."

"Transgender children do not undergo gender-affirming surgeries, but may receive fully reversible medications that put puberty on hold"

So can we at least agree the HRC is full of shit, bordering on intentionally lying, about this topic?

B wrote: You'd need parental permission and an assessment from a surgeon that you have decisional capacity. And it's not like you just walk into a surgeon's office. That kid would have to talk to a counselor who referred them to a doctor who referred them to a surgeon who most likely discusses this case with the hospital legal counsel. And ALL those people would have to be convinced that this was the right course of action, and none of them would be unless less-invasive treatments have at least been attempted first.

Hence the lawsuit. And that makes sense for things like cancer, but doesn't answer the question of if a 13 year old can consent to this procedure for this diagnosis or if it should even be legal for it to be offered to a struggling child at that age.

And I'd circle back to the lobotomies thing, why is irreversible surgery suddenly an OK treatment for children suffering mental issues?

tree_ wrote:

wease wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:What Trans values do you feel children in this country are being indoctrinated with? Are you afraid they're going to turn your children trans?

Again, there are many people voicing their concern over indoctrination, and it should be completely within their right to do so without being demonized. I do not know how justified their concern is.

But you won't ever say what your actual concern is...

Also, explain how it's reasonable to compare a gender identity to a religion. Is that not apples and oranges?

My concern is the all too prevalent demonization of others for having different, yet valid opinions from yours; loud voices drowning out the timid ones.

It's reasonable to compare them because with both ideologies, some people disagree and don't want them pushed onto their children.

Please, for the love of God, articulate an actual opinion.

Don't indoctrinate children; educate them.

Just not with the stuff you disagree with, right? As long as it conforms to what tree_ demands should be taught, it’s “education.” If it disagrees, it’s indoctrination.

tree_ DeSantis believes slavery is ok. Thus, teaching about the Civil War in any way that doesn’t favor the South and stand up for slavery is “indoctrination” and therefore not allowed.

Again, there is a fine line between education and indoctrination. Teach them everything, about all religions, opposing views of history (based on evidence), transgenderism (at an appropriate age), and allow them to decide for themselves whether or not a God exists, what they believe happened, or if they're actually the opposite sex/gender, who they want to be and how they want to live their lives.

that's exactly what trans people are proposing; we don't want your cis kids to be trans, we want your trans kids to know that they don't have to want to kill themselves

there is no such thing as an "inappropriate" age to teach kids that they can explore their gender; as with every subject on the planet, there are age-appropriate ways to do that

now, as for teaching kids that "both sides" of every single subject on the planet are right and good and neutral, that's bullshit; there is nothing wrong with taking a definite stand on things, there is everything wrong with taking the wrong, hateful stand

Bi_3 wrote:And I'd circle back to the lobotomies thing, why is irreversible surgery suddenly an OK treatment for children suffering mental issues?

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I took enough psychology courses to know that screening prior to lobotomies was not as thorough as surgical consults today.

It appears as though the medical community considers a mastectomy reversible through reconstruction and teenagers to have decisional capacity, and you do not.

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:

tree_ wrote:

JuanHamm wrote:What Trans values do you feel children in this country are being indoctrinated with? Are you afraid they're going to turn your children trans?

Again, there are many people voicing their concern over indoctrination, and it should be completely within their right to do so without being demonized. I do not know how justified their concern is.

But you won't ever say what your actual concern is...

Also, explain how it's reasonable to compare a gender identity to a religion. Is that not apples and oranges?

My concern is the all too prevalent demonization of others for having different, yet valid opinions from yours; loud voices drowning out the timid ones.

It's reasonable to compare them because with both ideologies, some people disagree and don't want them pushed onto their children.

it doesn't matter what bigotted parents don't want "pushed onto their children"; it matters what is best for the child, and what will make them the happiest they can be, both now and in the future

B wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:And I'd circle back to the lobotomies thing, why is irreversible surgery suddenly an OK treatment for children suffering mental issues?

I'm not a psychiatrist, but I took enough psychology courses to know that screening prior to lobotomies was not as thorough as surgical consults today.

It appears as though the medical community considers a mastectomy reversible through reconstruction and teenagers to have decisional capacity, and you do not.

being trans is not a "mental issue" Bi_3

Ms Harmless wrote:now, as for teaching kids that "both sides" of every single subject on the planet are right and good and neutral, that's bullshit; there is nothing wrong with taking a definite stand on things, there is everything wrong with taking the wrong, hateful stand

I do not know the best way to teach kids or what the appropriate age for subjects are. I was just stating that it’s reasonable for parents to argue And disagree because it is so complicated and nuanced

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:now, as for teaching kids that "both sides" of every single subject on the planet are right and good and neutral, that's bullshit; there is nothing wrong with taking a definite stand on things, there is everything wrong with taking the wrong, hateful stand

I do not know the best way to teach kids or what the appropriate age for subjects are. I was just stating that it’s reasonable for parents to argue And disagree because it is so complicated and nuanced

1. you're absolutely right, you don't

2. it isn't

parents argue and disagree because they're scared, ignorant, and / or hateful little shits who let their personal bigotry overshadow their task as a parent

charities like Mermaids UK exist to help parents and their trans kids, reconcile where needed, then navigate the system

BurtReynolds wrote:

B wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:No he doesn't act like that. You just immediately assume the worst possible intentions of anyone who disagrees with you.

His posts assume the worst possible intentions of anyone who provides gender affirming care. I didn't make him post that.

you live an entirely fact free existence.

BurtReynolds please always remember that leftism isn't an ideology, it's an aesthetic

for the leftist the world is a series of opportunities to strike a cheap pose of moral superiority, not a reality to be understood as a series of causes and effects and observable events

the leftist must be mocked, not engaged with in good faith

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:now, as for teaching kids that "both sides" of every single subject on the planet are right and good and neutral, that's bullshit; there is nothing wrong with taking a definite stand on things, there is everything wrong with taking the wrong, hateful stand

I do not know the best way to teach kids or what the appropriate age for subjects are. I was just stating that it’s reasonable for parents to argue And disagree because it is so complicated and nuanced

1. you're absolutely right, you don't

2. it isn't

1. You don’t either

2. Yes it is

--- wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

B wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:No he doesn't act like that. You just immediately assume the worst possible intentions of anyone who disagrees with you.

His posts assume the worst possible intentions of anyone who provides gender affirming care. I didn't make him post that.

you live an entirely fact free existence.

BurtReynolds please always remember that leftism isn't an ideology, it's an aesthetic

for the leftist the world is a series of opportunities to strike a cheap pose of moral superiority, not a reality to be understood as a series of causes and effects and observable events

the leftist must be mocked, not engaged with in good faith

Thank you. I needed to hear that. I’m out