Red Mosquito

Orpheus wrote:Or we could ditch this idea that there is a QB binary where a guy is either awesome or sucks and acknowledge that winning in the playoffs is extremely hard. Carson Palmer has been a good to great QB when healthy, and he played against a great defense that was going all-out to try to make it to a Super Bowl. Is Tom Brady suddenly shitty because of his bad game against the Broncos? No, he just played an incredibly good defense and it didn't go his way.

Peyton Manning is the only QB to take multiple teams to the Super Bowl multiple times, yet people are STILL going to say shit like he's "not clutch" and "can't win big games." Winning a Super Bowl is one of the hardest things in the entire world. Let's stop acting like someone sucks if they fall short of it.

So much this.

4/5 wrote:

Orpheus wrote:Or we could ditch this idea that there is a QB binary where a guy is either awesome or sucks and acknowledge that winning in the playoffs is extremely hard. Carson Palmer has been a good to great QB when healthy, and he played against a great defense that was going all-out to try to make it to a Super Bowl. Is Tom Brady suddenly shitty because of his bad game against the Broncos? No, he just played an incredibly good defense and it didn't go his way.

Peyton Manning is the only QB to take multiple teams to the Super Bowl multiple times, yet people are STILL going to say shit like he's "not clutch" and "can't win big games." Winning a Super Bowl is one of the hardest things in the entire world. Let's stop acting like someone sucks if they fall short of it.

So much this.

I agree except with the Carson Palmer part. There is playing really hard and losing to a great team, and there is the way he played yesterday. Two of his interceptions were balls that should not have even been thrown. Didn't matter how good the defense was, they were going to be picked off.

I was never arguing that there's a QB binary (i.e., you either are good or you suck), but then again I'm not sure if I'm being accused of that (use quotes, people!). However, I do think there are certainly levels of QB performances, and I wouldn't even have Carson Palmer sniff the top level. He's had 9 seasons where he's started 3/4 of his team's games, and in those seasons he's 73-67 (only 4 of those years were winning seasons). His cum stats are impressive but his per stats barely crack the top 10 in most cases for active QBs. I think there are a lot of QBs that would succeed in ARI right now with the receiving core that they have. But that doesn't make me change the point I was going for above: he's second-tier at best, but he has lots of leverage to keep his job because there's a lot of risk going from a "stable" QB to an unknown quantity.

Simple...how many of his cum stats did you look at to cum to that cumclusion?

Peeps wrote:Simple...how many of his cum stats did you look at to cum to that cumclusion?

Usually I can only get through 3-4 cum stats before it's all over.

Personally, I think a lot of people are talking out of their ass this morning about Carson. The stats don’t really back up this “not a top 10 QB” talk. 46 TDs and 14 INTs in his last 22 regular season games. Those are pretty amazing numbers considering BA’s high-risk, high-reward system. Add to this that he’s probably the most immobile QB in the league and BA runs about 90% “zero-protection” passing plays and I don’t think you could have asked much more from him.

Also, this notion that anyone could play in BA’s offense in total nonsense. Drew Stanton had 7 TDs and 5 INTs and completed less than 55% of his passes in 8 games filling in for Carson last year.

That being said, yes, he had two shitty games in the playoffs.

One thing people don’t seem to be talking about here, is how much that Week 17 debacle against Seattle really hurt the Cards. BA should have either sat everyone or played everyone. This idea that you’d play a game with a barebones gameplan with the starters in the first half, then sit everyone in the second half amounted to allowing the Seahawks to run roughshod all over your football team and killing their confidence. It should be Exhibit A on how NOT to handle a “play ‘em or sit ‘em?” situation.

Carson was having an MVP caliber season this year. Unless there's some shadiness in the overall voting, he should probably finish in 3rd place after Cam and Brady. Its disappointing he couldn't keep the pace up for the playoffs.

turned2black wrote: Also, this notion that anyone could play in BA’s offense in total nonsense.

I didn't say "anyone," just lots of QBs--and I wouldn't put Drew Stanton on that list.

And there's no way I'm going to argue with you about Palmer's numbers the past two years, especially this year--he led the league in AY/Y and Y/C, and was way up there in plenty of other categories. But a number of those stats were far-and-away career bests (including TDs and INTs, which were at a career high and a career low, respectively), and during his age-36 season, they're as likely to be anomalies as they are to be a sign that he's an elite QB.

Mecca wrote:

Orpheus wrote:Or we could ditch this idea that there is a QB binary where a guy is either awesome or sucks and acknowledge that winning in the playoffs is extremely hard. Carson Palmer has been a good to great QB when healthy, and he played against a great defense that was going all-out to try to make it to a Super Bowl. Is Tom Brady suddenly shitty because of his bad game against the Broncos? No, he just played an incredibly good defense and it didn't go his way.

Peyton Manning is the only QB to take multiple teams to the Super Bowl multiple times, yet people are STILL going to say shit like he's "not clutch" and "can't win big games." Winning a Super Bowl is one of the hardest things in the entire world. Let's stop acting like someone sucks if they fall short of it.

on the flip side, Eli Manning has won 2 Super Bowls

Eli has been to two Super Bowls and won both (made playoffs five times). Meanwhile his brother has now been to four Super Bowls, winning one (made playoffs 15 times).

You can also consider that as important as the QB is, in playoffs and Super Bowls defenses really do seem to win championships. Eli won two Super Bowls and give him credit for coming through on go ahead drives late in both those games, but beyond those drives he wasn't out of this world great in either of those games. The Giants' defense won those games. Peyton Manning has dragged a couple of teams with mediocre defenses to the Super Bowl, but the only time he won is when the defense played well (they also got a really good matchup against a Bears team that wasn't great). Or look at Brady. With a minute left in last year's game and Seattle looking like they were about to go ahead, the possibility seemed very real that he was about to be 3/6 in Super Bowls having lost his last 3 (and it's worth noting that New England's defense was the team's strength for the first two wins). Then Wilson throws a pick and suddenly he's a guy with four rings. Either way that game ends, Brady was freaking great in that fourth quarter but it's down to NE's defense and Seattle's play call that he won 3 instead of 4 (then there's Carolina's kick off out of bounds, all the close breaks of that Rams SB etc).

A single football game can turn on so many little things. It really is kind of crazy to just say, "Oh he can't win the big one."

Though none of that is to say that Carson Palmer didn't totally shit the bed in these playoffs. But that doesn't mean if he gets back next year he'll be this bad. Despite his age, he has very little playoff experience. The NFL is really about getting to the playoffs and then seeing what happens. What's the weather, what are the matchups, etc. Palmer was really good throughout the season and despite his terrible game yesterday he's still miles above what Arizona was left with last year after he got hurt.

Also consider that until last night, probably the worst playoff QB performance I can recall was Jake Delhomme's (IIRC) 4 pick, 1 fumble game against the Cardinals 7-8 years ago. But that same Delhomme a few years earlier had led his team down the field late in the Super Bowl to tie the game, and it wasn't his fault that their kicker kicked off out of bounds and the defense gave up the last second FG.

Really you just want a guy good enough to get you there and then hope breaks go your way.

its insanely tough to even get to the super bowl, for sure. I guess that makes going to 4 straight the greatest accomplishment ever

Mecca wrote:its insanely tough to even get to the super bowl, for sure. I guess that makes going to 4 straight the greatest accomplishment ever

and the patriots have fired their o-line coach

lennytheweedwhacker wrote:and the patriots have fired their o-line coach

Bring back Dante Scarnecchia!

mray10 wrote:

Mecca wrote:

Orpheus wrote:Or we could ditch this idea that there is a QB binary where a guy is either awesome or sucks and acknowledge that winning in the playoffs is extremely hard. Carson Palmer has been a good to great QB when healthy, and he played against a great defense that was going all-out to try to make it to a Super Bowl. Is Tom Brady suddenly shitty because of his bad game against the Broncos? No, he just played an incredibly good defense and it didn't go his way.

Peyton Manning is the only QB to take multiple teams to the Super Bowl multiple times, yet people are STILL going to say shit like he's "not clutch" and "can't win big games." Winning a Super Bowl is one of the hardest things in the entire world. Let's stop acting like someone sucks if they fall short of it.

on the flip side, Eli Manning has won 2 Super Bowls

Eli has been to two Super Bowls and won both (made playoffs five times). Meanwhile his brother has now been to four Super Bowls, winning one (made playoffs 15 times).

You can also consider that as important as the QB is, in playoffs and Super Bowls defenses really do seem to win championships. Eli won two Super Bowls and give him credit for coming through on go ahead drives late in both those games, but beyond those drives he wasn't out of this world great in either of those games. The Giants' defense won those games. Peyton Manning has dragged a couple of teams with mediocre defenses to the Super Bowl, but the only time he won is when the defense played well (they also got a really good matchup against a Bears team that wasn't great). Or look at Brady. With a minute left in last year's game and Seattle looking like they were about to go ahead, the possibility seemed very real that he was about to be 3/6 in Super Bowls having lost his last 3 (and it's worth noting that New England's defense was the team's strength for the first two wins). Then Wilson throws a pick and suddenly he's a guy with four rings. Either way that game ends, Brady was freaking great in that fourth quarter but it's down to NE's defense and Seattle's play call that he won 3 instead of 4 (then there's Carolina's kick off out of bounds, all the close breaks of that Rams SB etc).

A single football game can turn on so many little things. It really is kind of crazy to just say, "Oh he can't win the big one."

Though none of that is to say that Carson Palmer didn't totally shit the bed in these playoffs. But that doesn't mean if he gets back next year he'll be this bad. Despite his age, he has very little playoff experience. The NFL is really about getting to the playoffs and then seeing what happens. What's the weather, what are the matchups, etc. Palmer was really good throughout the season and despite his terrible game yesterday he's still miles above what Arizona was left with last year after he got hurt.

Also consider that until last night, probably the worst playoff QB performance I can recall was Jake Delhomme's (IIRC) 4 pick, 1 fumble game against the Cardinals 7-8 years ago. But that same Delhomme a few years earlier had led his team down the field late in the Super Bowl to tie the game, and it wasn't his fault that their kicker kicked off out of bounds and the defense gave up the last second FG.

Really you just want a guy good enough to get you there and then hope breaks go your way.

Tl,dr

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/14661 ... comparable

There's some truth to this even if he has trouble articulating what he's trying to say at times. In part he's successful because he has tremendous confidence in himself and he's got the athletic ability to back it up. He's refined all the criticisms of his game (otherwise he couldn't produce on the level he has obviously) but Cam is Cam, love it or hate it. I don't think he's a bad guy, brash yes, but not everyone is Barry Sanders. If he's on your team you love it, if he's not you hate it. I've seen so much of it since Florida I'm over all that. He's just a damn good QB and or Football Player.

He's what people thought Tim Tebow was going to be. He's Mike Vick with Rothlisburger's size.

That said, there aren't many humans like him. If they manage to win the Super Bowl, he's got a good shot to be back a few times.

This year, he's been about as "elite" as it gets.

I'm a HUGE Cam Newton fan. I don't see what the big deal about him is. He plays for a division rival of my team yet I love everything he does. Awesome guy, awesome player.

i hate literally everything about him...except his race

lennytheweedwhacker wrote:i hate literally everything about him...except his race

why though? What is there to hate? He's confident, has fun, and is nice to kids.

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

lennytheweedwhacker wrote:i hate literally everything about him...except his race

why though? What is there to hate? He's confident, has fun, and is nice to kids.

don't let him kid you. it's b/c he's black.