Red Mosquito

Steve Albini wrote:Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Man I hate the narrative structure of most dramatic TV. Every new show I start, I quit before the first episode ends.

durdencommatyler wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Man I hate the narrative structure of most dramatic TV. Every new show I start, I quit before the first episode ends.

This will probably read a snarky, but I really don't mean it that way... just curious, though, why do you keep watching? What do you hope to gain by trying again and again? Just looking for/hoping for something that will click?

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Man I hate the narrative structure of most dramatic TV. Every new show I start, I quit before the first episode ends.

This will probably read a snarky, but I really don't mean it that way... just curious, though, why do you keep watching? What do you hope to gain by trying again and again? Just looking for/hoping for something that will click?

Yep. Things look/sound good, and I hope for the best, but as soon as I start them, the same problems crop up again and again.

Monkey_Driven wrote:So, you hate the structure of pilots/first episodes or later episodes as well? Just curious. Pilots aren't always a good indication of what the show will evolve to.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Monkey_Driven wrote:So, you hate the structure of pilots/first episodes or later episodes as well? Just curious. Pilots aren't always a good indication of what the show will evolve to.

I just don't think most stories are built for the length of a TV series. It breeds bloated exposition and wasted time. Scenes that could be taken care of in a minute and a half in a movie drag on for 10-15 minutes in a show. It's mind-numbing.

Steve Albini wrote:Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

Steve Albini wrote:Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

tragabigzanda wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:"World building" is a really overrated concept, and time isn't the factor in making that good, anyway.

Also, I said dramatic shows. Of course this wouldn't apply to episodic comedy like Sunny.

Good exposition, character development, plot development, theme development, and - sure - world-building are done through cinematic skill, not by taking more time. Either a film/TV-maker is skilled or they aren't. The "new parameters" hurt more than they help.

Parameters of any sort, new or old, are never themselves inherently bad to the creative process. It's all in how the creator works within those parameters (perhaps what you are referring to with "cinematic skill"). I'm simply suggesting the the aforementioned TV shows are examples of creative people working very effectively within the new parameters. I'm not suggesting it's somehow better than film; just that the conventional film parameters reveal their own flaws constantly. The new parameters are new; I suspect we'll see more great "TV" (dump streaming, etc) continue to use them well, while the major film studios will continue to trend towards tent-pole and "same day as theater."

tragabigzanda wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:"World building" is a really overrated concept, and time isn't the factor in making that good, anyway.

Also, I said dramatic shows. Of course this wouldn't apply to episodic comedy like Sunny.

Good exposition, character development, plot development, theme development, and - sure - world-building are done through cinematic skill, not by taking more time. Either a film/TV-maker is skilled or they aren't. The "new parameters" hurt more than they help.

Parameters of any sort, new or old, are never themselves inherently bad to the creative process. It's all in how the creator works within those parameters (perhaps what you are referring to with "cinematic skill"). I'm simply suggesting the the aforementioned TV shows are examples of creative people working very effectively within the new parameters. I'm not suggesting it's somehow better than film; just that the conventional film parameters reveal their own flaws constantly. The new parameters are new; I suspect we'll see more great "TV" (dump streaming, etc) continue to use them well, while the major film studios will continue to trend towards tent-pole and "same day as theater."

Steve Albini wrote:Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

tragabigzanda wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:"World building" is a really overrated concept, and time isn't the factor in making that good, anyway.

Also, I said dramatic shows. Of course this wouldn't apply to episodic comedy like Sunny.

Good exposition, character development, plot development, theme development, and - sure - world-building are done through cinematic skill, not by taking more time. Either a film/TV-maker is skilled or they aren't. The "new parameters" hurt more than they help.

Parameters of any sort, new or old, are never themselves inherently bad to the creative process. It's all in how the creator works within those parameters (perhaps what you are referring to with "cinematic skill"). I'm simply suggesting the the aforementioned TV shows are examples of creative people working very effectively within the new parameters. I'm not suggesting it's somehow better than film; just that the conventional film parameters reveal their own flaws constantly. The new parameters are new; I suspect we'll see more great "TV" (dump streaming, etc) continue to use them well, while the major film studios will continue to trend towards tent-pole and "same day as theater."

I get what you're saying, but I don't share your optimism about the transition because I've seen almost no evidence that work within these "new" parameters is any good at all. It just feels like we are going to keep moving further and further away from sensuality and feeling in our art. I'm not interested in what these new parameters are fostering. At least so far.

The bolded part is intriguing, and I can see how this might inform your appreciation of BvsS (and that sense of feeling-through-imagery was my favorite part.

Which of the shows I listed have you watched?

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Oh god, not this subjectivity/objectivity bullshit again.