The War on Terror /Central Asia/Mid East/Africa thread

[Bi_3]

And yet...

And yet what? That's a picture of Palestinians failing to make a dent in Israel's defenses right before Israel mowed down 100 innocent victims in retaliation.

Look, no one should defend Hamas, they're terrorists. But if people are going to defend Israel's right to kill Palestinian civilians because terrorists might be hiding behind them, then they're disconnected from their humanity.

Ah ha! Progress. So it's not that the people in Gaza don't have power. The distribution of power is just highly in one side's favor, resulting in inequitable outcomes amoungst identity groups.

[B]

And yet...

And yet what? That's a picture of Palestinians failing to make a dent in Israel's defenses right before Israel mowed down 100 innocent victims in retaliation.

Look, no one should defend Hamas, they're terrorists. But if people are going to defend Israel's right to kill Palestinian civilians because terrorists might be hiding behind them, then they're disconnected from their humanity.

Ah ha! Progress. So it's not that the people in Gaza don't have power. The distribution of power is just highly in one side's favor, resulting in inequitable outcomes amoungst identity groups.

Well, ants can always bite your ankle while you stop their home.

[Rob]

The power rests almost entirely on one side, and again, most people can differentiate between Hamas and the majority of Palestinians. You immediately posting a picture of Hamas rocket fire suggests you don’t see the difference? Are those rockets being fired by “the people of Gaza” or by a terrorist group from the area?

[Bi_3]

The power rests almost entirely on one side, and again, most people can differentiate between Hamas and the majority of Palestinians. You immediately posting a picture of Hamas rocket fire suggests you don’t see the difference? Are those rockets being fired by “the people of Gaza” or by a terrorist group from the area?

The majority of the Palestinians do not live in Gaza, they live in Jordan and the West Bank.

Hamas is the ruling party of Gaza:

In the January 2006 Palestinian parliamentary elections, Hamas won a majority in the Palestinian Parliament,[39] defeating the PLO-affiliated Fatah party. After the elections, the Quartet (the European Union, Russia, the United Nations and the United States) made future foreign assistance to the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) conditional upon the PNA's commitment to nonviolence, recognition of the state of Israel, and acceptance of previous agreements. Hamas rejected those conditions, which led the Quartet to suspend its foreign assistance program and Israel to impose economic sanctions on the Hamas-led administration.[40][41] In March 2007, a national unity government headed by Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas was briefly formed, but this failed to restart international financial assistance.[42] Tensions over control of Palestinian security forces soon erupted in the 2007 Battle of Gaza,[42] after which Hamas took control of Gaza, while its officials were ousted from government positions in the West Bank.[42] Israel and Egypt then imposed an economic blockade of the Gaza Strip on the grounds that Fatah forces were no longer providing security there.

And the majority of the world does not recognize them as a terrorist group:

Canada, the European Union, Israel, Japan and the United States classify Hamas as a terrorist organization. Australia, New Zealand, Paraguay and the United Kingdom classify only its military wing as a terrorist organization. It is not considered a terrorist organization by Brazil, China, Egypt, Iran, Norway, Qatar, Russia, Syria and Turkey. In December 2018, the United Nations General Assembly rejected a U.S. resolution condemning Hamas as a terrorist organization

And was likely win in the first Palestinian elections since they won in 2006:

Abbas delays Palestinian parliamentary polls, blaming Israel

Critics say Palestinian leader using the Jerusalem issue as an excuse to avoid elections that a divided Fatah might well lose to Hamas.

Personally, I do not believe the majority of the Palestinians (outside of Gaza) support Hamas. I suspect it's really only Iran and their client orgs like Hezbollah that do. But none of this is the point. If a group is shooting at you and they all miss, or you stood behind a wall that stopped the bullets, that doesn't mean they weren't shooting. Erasing Hamas from the equation as Friedman does is pretending they weren't shooting. The intent matters, not just the inequitable outcome.

[Anders]

Numbers one day ago: 212 Palestinians have been killed so far in the nine days of the conflict, including more than 60 children. 12 people in Israel, including 2 children have been killed. Hundreds injured on both sides.

I see a lot of blaming, mostly against Israel, but very few solutions.

[Rob]

Numbers one day ago: 212 Palestinians have been killed so far in the nine days of the conflict, including more than 60 children. 12 people in Israel, including 2 children have been killed. Hundreds injured on both sides.

I see a lot of blaming, mostly against Israel, but very few solutions.

I remember when everyone agreed that the only solution was two sovereign states. Seems like a long time ago now. At this point there doesn’t seem to be an alternative and it’s hard to see how there can be two states when there are now more than 100 Israeli settlements in the West Bank, carving up the region, and a blockade of Gaza which is basically just an open air prison now.

My intent here isn’t to blame one side, but Israel has already said repeatedly over the years that the settlements will continue and will never be dismantled. So... ? What are we left with? Watching Israel slowly annex the West Bank and driving people out? A “one country solution” that is a “Jewish state” but half (or more Muslim)?

The one good solution seems like a pipe dream now. And I contend that one side (Israel and the US) have all the power here. A terrorist group firing rockets indiscriminately is a horrible thing, but terrorism is also a sign of weakness and decay.

[dimejinky99]

Seems they’ve run out of missles for the iron dome and are now bombing Gaza from warships off shore. just in case. Yeah but both sides.

[dimejinky99]

The Israel Builders Association said Palestinian workers had observed the strike, with only 150 of the 65,000 Palestinian construction workers coming to work in Israel. This paralyzed building sites, causing losses estimated at..nearly $40 million..”We cannot build without them”:

[simple schoolboy]

Seems they’ve run out of missles for the iron dome and are now bombing Gaza from warships off shore. just in case. Yeah but both sides.

Out of iron dome interceptors? Thats new

[dimejinky99]

Bi are you really saying all Palestinians are Hamas? Cos if you are even suggesting it youre not only wrong, you shouldnt be throwing ‘dumbing down’ around anywhere.

[Bi_3]

Bi are you really saying all Palestinians are Hamas? Cos if you are even suggesting it youre not only wrong, you shouldnt be throwing ‘dumbing down’ around anywhere.

No, sorry for any confusion there, not all Palestinians support Hamas. Data shows a majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas and that negative view of Hamas is consistent across the Arab world. BUT a large amount of Palestinians do support Hamas, particularly in Gaza. Hamas is not Al-Qaeda. Hamas is not a bunch of crazies hiding in caves and strapping on suicide vests. Since the early 2000s they have possessed democratic legitimacy and influence and power and an organized military they are using to kill Israelis. Excluding Hamas from the conversation and framing the conflict in terms of ethnic groups (Israelis vs Palestinians) so that it fits into the oppressor/oppressed binary is a terrible misrepresentation of the situation that will inevitably lead to more harm.




Here's a good piece on the situation from the left-leaning Brookings Institute:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-fr ... e-the-day/

Hamas tries to seize the day

The latest round of Israeli-Palestinian fighting began in Jerusalem, but it has spread throughout Israel and to Gaza. The bloodshed could become more intense, leading to another Israeli ground operation in Gaza and far more casualties than we’ve already seen. Even if Israel batters the Hamas leaders in Gaza into submission, the violence threatens to further weaken peaceful Palestinian voices, help Hamas overcome its many weaknesses, and create new rifts within the state of Israel.

The latest conflict grew out of threatened evictions of Palestinians from the Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood in Jerusalem and was magnified after provocative Jewish settler marches through Arab areas of the city, with some marchers chanting “death to Arabs.” Violence spread to the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound, one of the holiest sites in Islam, and an Israeli police raid on the venerated mosque —including the use of stun grenades on worshipers demonstrating there — set off more demonstrations. At the same time, Israeli officials tried to deescalate, postponing the evictions and rerouting a potentially provocative parade by religious Jewish nationalists.

Things took a dramatic turn on Monday, when Hamas and another Islamist group, Palestine Islamic Jihad, sent massive salvos of rockets into Israel, firing them toward Jerusalem, with claims of defending the holy mosque and Palestinians there against Israeli aggression — the first rocket attacks on Jerusalem since 2014. Israel then responded with airstrikes on Gaza, which Palestinian health officials claim have killed 53 people, including 13 children, as of Wednesday afternoon. Hamas launched more rockets at Tel Aviv, as well as targets closer to Gaza, such as Ashkelon. Residents of cities targeted by the rockets are forced to hide in shelters and rocket attacks have killed seven Israelis, increasing pressure on the Israeli government to act. Arab citizens rioted in several Israeli cities and towns. In mixed Jewish-Arab cities, including Jaffa but especially Lod (Lydda) and Acre, communal violence not seen in decades included mobs attacking civilian homes, synagogues, and property, with vigilante violence and reprisals.

Why would Hamas fire rockets and make the situation worse, knowing that Israel will hit Gaza hard?

Hamas has long faced a dilemma as it tries to balance its roles as the government of Gaza and as the leading Palestinian resistance group to Israel. Neither seemed to offer a path to becoming the uncontested leader of the Palestinian national movement and ultimately defeating Israel. As the de facto ruler of Gaza since 2007, Hamas has succeeded in keeping power despite Israeli, U.S., and international pressure, as well as repeated Israeli military incursions. The isolation, however, prevents Gaza from growing economically and keeps the humanitarian situation dire. As a result, Hamas is unable to provide economic growth or other benefits to Gazans and demonstrate it is an effective leader of the Palestinians.

At the same time, Hamas faces challenges when it attacks Israel. As the latest strikes demonstrate, Israel will not hesitate to hit Gaza hard in response to Hamas provocations. Israel and Hamas have squared off in major confrontations in Gaza in 2008-09, 2012, and 2014, as well as numerous small attacks and responses in between. Gaza has come off the worse for these, and Palestinian suffering has been enormous. Hamas killed few Israelis in these confrontations, but it has solidified its hold on power. The destructive Israeli response is intended to send a message that violence will backfire and make it harder for Hamas to portray its leadership of Gaza as a success.

Hamas has also suffered as the Middle East has changed and hope for foreign support has declined. The Arab Spring, the civil war in Syria, and other political earthquakes made the Israeli-Palestinian issue less politically salient for many people in the region and around the world. Major shifts that once would have riveted world attention, like the United States’ move of its embassy to Jerusalem, generated little meaningful outrage. The signing of the Abraham Accords, which formalized a peace between Israel and the United Arab Emirates, was another nail in the coffin and was followed by peace deals with Bahrain, Morocco, and Sudan. Despite the unresolved Palestinian issue and the problems in Gaza, the region was moving on.

Hamas’ hostile relationship with President Mahmoud Abbas and the rest of the leadership of the Palestinian Authority, which controls the West Bank, makes its dilemma even more difficult. Rivals for leadership of the Palestinian national movement, they differ on their willingness to negotiate with Israel, support for violence, and other fundamentals. Both sides see the relationship as zero-sum and often design their policies toward Israel as a way of gaining an advantage over the other.

Israel’s hope is that, through isolation and military punishment, Hamas’ allure will diminish. This has worked, to a degree, in that poor living conditions in Gaza and the perks its leaders enjoy have tarnished Hamas’ popularity. Yet Hamas remains firmly ensconced in power in Gaza, and Israel and the Palestinian Authority fear that Hamas will also take power in the West Bank, either through elections or through a forceful takeover. This would be a nightmare for Israel. The West Bank is far closer to the biggest Israeli population centers (and often on higher ground), and a significant Hamas presence there could lead to far more dangerous rocket strikes and terrorist attacks on Israel.

To prevent this nightmare, Israel has worked closely with the Palestinian Authority to suppress Hamas in the West Bank. The postponement of elections scheduled for April of this year has snuffed out, or at least temporarily set back, Hamas’ hopes to win an electoral victory.

Hamas, however, has one huge advantage: the weakness of its Palestinian rivals. The Palestinian Authority is corrupt, divided, and unpopular. Its leader, the uninspiring Abbas, is 85 years old, with no clear successor. Fatah, the movement he leads, is less competent than Hamas and inspires little loyalty. Perhaps most importantly, Abbas bet heavily on negotiations with Israel. The lack of negotiations, or even the chance of serious peace talks, raises the obvious question: How does Abbas and the movement he leads hope to end the Israeli occupation?

The violence over Sheikh Jarrah is thus tailor-made for Hamas. The evictions in Jerusalem and the initial heavy-handed police response meant much of the world believes Israel started the latest round. Unrest in Jerusalem captures world — especially Muslim world — attention. Military strikes by Hamas allow it to claim it is defending Palestinians while the Palestinian Authority stands by amidst, or even abets, the occupation through its cooperation with Israel.

Israel has already hit Gaza hard and may escalate further, both through more airstrikes and perhaps on the ground, leading to more death and devastation there. Hamas will continue rocket attacks in response, killing few Israelis but terrorizing many. As ordinary Palestinians and Israelis suffer, Egypt and other neighbors, perhaps with U.S. nudging, may try to defuse the situation, with Israel ending attacks on Gaza while making a few token concessions to ease its economic isolation so Hamas can claim some victory. The world spotlight will quickly move on to another crisis, and, over time, the devastation and misery in Gaza will erode any brief spike Hamas might enjoy from its attacks on Israel.

And then we’ll wait for the next round.

[simple schoolboy]

Edit: no confirmation of a ceasefire.

[Rob]

Bi are you really saying all Palestinians are Hamas? Cos if you are even suggesting it youre not only wrong, you shouldnt be throwing ‘dumbing down’ around anywhere.

No, sorry for any confusion there, not all Palestinians support Hamas. Data shows a majority of Palestinians do not support Hamas and that negative view of Hamas is consistent across the Arab world. BUT a large amount of Palestinians do support Hamas, particularly in Gaza. Hamas is not Al-Qaeda. Hamas is not a bunch of crazies hiding in caves and strapping on suicide vests. Since the early 2000s they have possessed democratic legitimacy and influence and power and an organized military they are using to kill Israelis. Excluding Hamas from the conversation and framing the conflict in terms of ethnic groups (Israelis vs Palestinians) so that it fits into the oppressor/oppressed binary is a terrible misrepresentation of the situation that will inevitably lead to more harm.

Seems Hamas has more of a militia than an organized military. Israel has a well organized military. No reasonable person ever excludes Hamas from the conversation to create some narrative. Some narratives write themselves. Palestinians have as much a right to exist as Israelis, and one doesn’t need to ignore aspects of the situation to defend them. Everyone acknowledges the power imbalance, as well as the fact that the casualties are overwhelmingly one side - always. On the side of the people who don’t really have any rights or anywhere else to go.

Everyone’s go to seems to be “Hamas” or “but the rockets,” yet no one ever answers when asked what Israel would have to do to end this multi-decade tragedy. No mention of settlements that prevent Palestinians from movement in their own territory, the evictions going on, the blockade. These are simple things. I assume none of us are experts here, but these seem pretty basic. Israel has already said many times it will not dismantle those settlements. Palestinians will always be 2nd class citizens in their own land. Yet everyone is always pointing the finger to the weak side, which has decayed for generations, become chaotic, and well... It shouldn’t be surprising.

[dimejinky99]

Even in ‘normal’ times There’s only power in Gaza for four hours a day.
Water, about three. And it’s often unusable.

[dimejinky99]

One for the simple schoolboy. Another great example of the British ‘doing a solid’ for themselves and a potted history of the origins of the destabilising of the entire Middle East

[BurtReynolds]

New dem script dropped

[simple schoolboy]

New dem script dropped

AAPI hate is similarly centered on white supremacy. So much white supremacy hatred in urban centers. Islamophobia is also a likely culprit for those east asians and southern asians getting punched in the face.

In the Asian community, who falls for this shit? The store owners know who robs and assaults them. The elderly know who hassles and attacks them. You have to have a masters degree in bullshit to believe that Trump inventented Asian animus in urban areas.

[BurtReynolds]

I feel like we're one attack on hispanics away from an unironic #AllLivesMatterExceptWhiteLivesSpecifically hashtag.

[dimejinky99]

Under international law Israel is legally obliged to supply Palestine with vaccines. They haven’t.

Now they’ve destroyed their only covid test Center.

Yeah but it’s not genocide. And you’re an antisemite if you even mention it.
I really wanna go back and post every one of the piss bags on here came at me for even posting this stuff. But I’d hope they’re snapped out of it now and realise what it is and it’s genocide ongoing. You’re a fucking scumbag if you still support or defend this. Simple as that.

[Bi_3]

#ProblemSolved