Red Mosquito

LetMeSleep wrote:Meanwhile Lament is being all kinds of adorable.

.

Lament wrote:

Release_Me wrote:PJ is unlike those other names. They've always been heavily dependent on Ed.

Right. Because Bruce Springsteen isn't dependent on Bruce Springsteen, or Tom Waits on Tom Waits, or Bob Dylan on Bob Dylan, or Leonard Cohen on Leonard Cohen, or PJ Harvey on PJ Harvey, or Prince on Prince, or Neil Young on Neil Young. None of those artists, most of whom are responsible for 100% of the writing/arranging on each of their records and in several cases all of the instrumentation and production as well, bear the weight of their entire project the was Ed does with Pearl Jam. I mean, Ed has to sing on like every song, and write words for a lot of them too. It's amazing he's able to carry that burden.

You assumed the two sentences were related. They weren't. Yes, PJ is unlike those other names but that's another discussion. The fact they're heavily dependendent on Ed ties in with what I said next.

A band being dependent on one guy is different from a solo artist who has the freedom to do whatever the hell he wants. It's a different dynamic.

cutuphalfdead wrote:release_me is kind of dumb

LetMeSleep wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Does he live in Somalia?

I'm pretty sure he lives in Pakistan.

Correct.

Lament wrote:

Release_Me wrote:My point was that it doesn't matter what the band does in 2014; it will never be to the liking of RM.

This is a pretty fucking stupid assessment to make given how many people on this board love work done just as late (if not later) into their careers by artists like Bruce Springsteen, Tom Waits, Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, PJ Harvey, Prince, U2, Neil Young, etc.

People on this board have shown themselves to be very receptive to the idea of artists doing great things well after their commercial heyday has passed. It's not their fault Pearl Jam churns out mediocrity.

But then again, you have "Pearl Jam is the only band I'll spend money on" in your signature, which pretty much says everything that needs to be said about your opinion.

Two things:

A: Pearl Jam does make it very easy to spend money on them. Maybe release_me is just lazy.

B: I am fairly convinced that RM as a whole does a great job talking itself out of enjoying anything by pearl jam.

Lament wrote:

Release_Me wrote:PJ is unlike those other names. They've always been heavily dependent on Ed.

Right. Because Bruce Springsteen isn't dependent on Bruce Springsteen, or Tom Waits on Tom Waits, or Bob Dylan on Bob Dylan, or Leonard Cohen on Leonard Cohen, or PJ Harvey on PJ Harvey, or Prince on Prince, or Neil Young on Neil Young. None of those artists, most of whom are responsible for 100% of the writing/arranging on each of their records and in several cases all of the instrumentation and production as well, bear the weight of their entire project the was Ed does with Pearl Jam. I mean, Ed has to sing on like every song, and write words for a lot of them too. It's amazing he's able to carry that burden.

Oh come on Lament. you know his point was that Ed's voice can't pull the weight it once did. The single most common complaint is probably how Ed sounds. Is that the case of fans of those other artists?

Name calling on the internet is fun as hell.

stip wrote:Oh come on Lament. you know his point was that Ed's voice can't pull the weight it once did. The single most common complaint is probably how Ed sounds. Is that the case of fans of those other artists?

I thought the most common complaint (at least around here) was that the songwriting just wasn't very good and the production decisions were destructive to the finished product. Besides, none of those artists' voices carry the weight they did when they were in their "primes" (well, maybe Tom Waits does, I don't know him well enough). But they find ways to put out interesting records despite that. Why should Pearl Jam get graded on a curve when the others don't?

stip wrote:

Lament wrote:

Release_Me wrote:PJ is unlike those other names. They've always been heavily dependent on Ed.

Right. Because Bruce Springsteen isn't dependent on Bruce Springsteen, or Tom Waits on Tom Waits, or Bob Dylan on Bob Dylan, or Leonard Cohen on Leonard Cohen, or PJ Harvey on PJ Harvey, or Prince on Prince, or Neil Young on Neil Young. None of those artists, most of whom are responsible for 100% of the writing/arranging on each of their records and in several cases all of the instrumentation and production as well, bear the weight of their entire project the was Ed does with Pearl Jam. I mean, Ed has to sing on like every song, and write words for a lot of them too. It's amazing he's able to carry that burden.

Oh come on Lament. you know his point was that Ed's voice can't pull the weight it once did. The single most common complaint is probably how Ed sounds. Is that the case of fans of those other artists?

None of those other artists, at least in my opinion, ever relied so much on the voice of the singer to make their songs work, as much as PJ did. The way I see it, Ed elevated many mediocre or average songs to awesome just by sounding the way he did. This might not be a great example but I cannot think of any other vocalist in the world singing Evenflow and the end product turning out into something truly memorable.

I still like the way Ed sounds and think he's actually gained some skill over the years, but I'm not fooling myself into thinking that the sheer awesomeness of 91-94 can be touched. The rest of band was always just ok for me. Maybe others were into them and think they were great individual musicians. I never did. They make a great band with Ed, that's always been my perception. I was also never much into PJ's or Ed's 'alternative' credentials as much as people here seem to be. I've always seen them as a straight up classic rock band so it doesn't matter to me if they've decided to become more 'accessible' lately.

I don't think it's only the voice that changed. Ed started writing from a different place post-94. I was never a fan of most of the middle period's introspection. I think it takes away much of what I love about his singing and PJ in general. That's why I prefer the 2006 onwards material to the middle period. The voice may not be what it was, but I like the fact that some of the intensity is back. I'll still prefer 91-94 over anything they manage to put out in the future but this current phase is a welcome one for me.

Very long post after a long time. Have a good weekend!

Release_Me wrote:The way I see it, Ed elevated many mediocre or average songs to awesome just by sounding the way he did. This might not be a great example but I cannot think of any other vocalist in the world singing Evenflow and the end product turning out into something truly memorable.

Except Even Flow has a very distinct, memorable guitar riff, a very tight rhythm section, and dramatic starts/stops/flourishes. There's actually a lot going on there. That's why a lot of people were pretty excited about Prince's instrumental cover of it last year. It's an impressive piece of music, even without Ed's vocals.

It's not like he's turning a fairly pedestrian synth riffs which plays for four-plus minutes without any real changes into a totally iconic song with just his mind-bending vocal performance the way Bruce Springsteen does on Born in the U.S.A. or anything.

I can agree that Evenflow isn't a great example of a mediocre song turned memorable by Ed. It does have more going for it musically than something like Release on the same album which is basically all Ed. Tremor Christ, Nothingman & Elderly Woman are others which come to mind where it's mostly Ed's performance which makes them great (for me).

My point, which I probably didn't make very well, is that no other singer could sing Evenflow and be taken as seriously as Ed. It would probably end up being just a good song. Not the song which gets played more often than any other in the band's catalogue.

Lament wrote:

stip wrote:Oh come on Lament. you know his point was that Ed's voice can't pull the weight it once did. The single most common complaint is probably how Ed sounds. Is that the case of fans of those other artists?

I thought the most common complaint (at least around here) was that the songwriting just wasn't very good and the production decisions were destructive to the finished product. Besides, none of those artists' voices carry the weight they did when they were in their "primes" (well, maybe Tom Waits does, I don't know him well enough). But they find ways to put out interesting records despite that. Why should Pearl Jam get graded on a curve when the others don't?

We probably need to rank the problems so we can settle this. It's the only way to be sure.

stip wrote:

Lament wrote:

stip wrote:Oh come on Lament. you know his point was that Ed's voice can't pull the weight it once did. The single most common complaint is probably how Ed sounds. Is that the case of fans of those other artists?

I thought the most common complaint (at least around here) was that the songwriting just wasn't very good and the production decisions were destructive to the finished product. Besides, none of those artists' voices carry the weight they did when they were in their "primes" (well, maybe Tom Waits does, I don't know him well enough). But they find ways to put out interesting records despite that. Why should Pearl Jam get graded on a curve when the others don't?

We probably need to rank the problems so we can settle this. It's the only way to be sure.

Or a draft.

I can't handle any more of chud's complaining

Release_Me wrote:I can agree that Evenflow isn't a great example of a mediocre song turned memorable by Ed. It does have more going for it musically than something like Release on the same album which is basically all Ed. Tremor Christ, Nothingman & Elderly Woman are others which come to mind where it's mostly Ed's performance which makes them great (for me).

My point, which I probably didn't make very well, is that no other singer could sing Evenflow and be taken as seriously as Ed. It would probably end up being just a good song. Not the song which gets played more often than any other in the band's catalogue.

I've never understood how people how able to do that with their brain; separate a piece of music from the vocals and lyrics written for it. To say Nothingman isn't much without Ed's performance doesn't make much sense to me because without that music how would that performance exist? I get that songs have deficiencies that can be pointed out, but to act like all the separate elements of a song exist independently of each other and just happen to meet each other on the good ones is hard for me to understand.

This isn't really a knock solely on you; I've heard other people use that same logic and it just seems alien to me.

let's rank the songs without considering ed's vocals

digster wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I can agree that Evenflow isn't a great example of a mediocre song turned memorable by Ed. It does have more going for it musically than something like Release on the same album which is basically all Ed. Tremor Christ, Nothingman & Elderly Woman are others which come to mind where it's mostly Ed's performance which makes them great (for me).

My point, which I probably didn't make very well, is that no other singer could sing Evenflow and be taken as seriously as Ed. It would probably end up being just a good song. Not the song which gets played more often than any other in the band's catalogue.

I've never understood how people how able to do that with their brain; separate a piece of music from the vocals and lyrics written for it. To say Nothingman isn't much without Ed's performance doesn't make much sense to me because without that music how would that performance exist? I get that songs have deficiencies that can be pointed out, but to act like all the separate elements of a song exist independently of each other and just happen to meet each other on the good ones is hard for me to understand.

This isn't really a knock solely on you; I've heard other people use that same logic and it just seems alien to me.

To the surprise of absolutely no one, I know exactly what he means.

Here you go, Digster



Imagine someone who wasn't Michael stipe singing different lyrics over that.

Imagine someone other than Bob Dylan singing All Along the Watchtower.

You just can't do it!!

My only PJ regret is that I don't have more Pearl Jam tattoos.