Red Mosquito

warehouse wrote:i really like the way he took the vocals on this one. its like he took the bridge to unthought known and and the vocals from cold confession and made one song. i really like it on first listen.

There's something about this which reminds me of the ending of Let It Ride. I'm liking it more with each listen. Hope we get a full fledged recording with the band at some point. Ed sings this with more conviction live than any recent performance I've heard and his voice doesn't waver much at the intense moments, which I like. Dare I say, there were a few parts which recalled the intensity of a young Ed.

Release_Me wrote:

warehouse wrote:i really like the way he took the vocals on this one. its like he took the bridge to unthought known and and the vocals from cold confession and made one song. i really like it on first listen.

There's something about this which reminds me of the ending of Let It Ride. I'm liking it more with each listen. Hope we get a full fledged recording with the band at some point. Ed sings this with more conviction live than any recent performance I've heard and his voice doesn't waver much at the intense moments, which I like. Dare I say, there were a few parts which recalled the intensity of a young Ed.

Now I want to hear this track.

Link is in the lst few pages i think? or on stereogum

stip wrote:Release Me's point is that the melodic underpinning of those early songs were stronger (i'll defer to people who know more about songwriting/construction to say whether or not that's true).

I don't know what kind of weight my opinion on the subject carries but for me it's pretty much the complete opposite, and is largely why the middle period remains so enjoyable to me while the early works become less and less interesting to me as time goes on. To me a lot of the early songs were very tuneless--Eddie would occasionally stumble across a compelling fragment but for the most part his melodies in those songs are in the same rambling, free-form language as the lyrics, which can lead to melodic brilliance if you're a master improviser, which Eddie is not. To my ears the melodies take on much more deliberate shapes around the time of ''Vitalogy,'' which not coincidentally is the first album where Eddie really takes the reins as the sole composer in the band. When he was composing vocal melodies over Stone's funk-rock riffs, he was pretty limited as to how he could employ chords and melody as cooperative songwriting devices (perhaps unsurprisingly, the most melodically accomplished song on ''Ten'' to my ears is ''Oceans,'' the music of which consists of a harmonically rich chord sequence as opposed to a single-note guitar riff repeated over and over). Starting around ''Vitalogy'' there is a lot more attention to the way harmonies within chords allow the vocal melodies to achieve different colors, different moods, presumably because the writing process is more malleable when you're the one in charge of both words and music and can bend and twist one as you feel it may suit the other. By the time they got back around to writing collaboratively again, Eddie's harmonic instincts (essentially, his understanding of the way certain melodies work as counterpoint to certain types of chords) were a lot stronger, and as a result he was composing tunes that to me felt a lot more like fully realized songs, as opposed to some of the early stuff which at times just seemed like riffs with vocals on top.

For my money songs like ''In Hiding'' and ''Parachutes'' represent the zenith of how Eddie was able to take another band member's arbitrary chord sequences and really make them into something truly musically compelling, in a compositional sense--like, if a jazz pianist were to perform unaccompanied versions of them, the bare bones of the compositions would hold up as something genuinely beautiful. Jeff and especially Stone both seem to me to really have had an inherent knack for this type of composition during this period--pretty much everything Stone wrote between ''Yield'' and ''Riot Act'' is full of clever, unexpected melodic and harmonic tensions, everything from the carnivalesque bridge in ''All Those Yesterdays'' to the after-hours melancholia of ''Fatal'' to the menacing dissonance of ''Rival.'' Matt's songs were rhythmic and mathematical as much as they were tuneful but I also think when you listen closely to them they possess a melodic density that is deliberate and consistent with the rest of material from those records.

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily equate ''catchy'' with ''melodic,'' though I concede they often correlate positively. The songs on ''Ten'' have big choruses with memorable, repeatable lines, and are sung with fervor; they are catchy. But take those superficial qualities away and I don't think any of those songs--''Alive,'' ''Jeremy,'' ''Even Flow''--offer anything that would stand up on strict melodic terms--i.e. as a combination of notes that really makes noteworthy use of the scale. There are many songs in the middle period which I would argue do just that.

BurtReynolds wrote:

stip wrote:with about 9 posts on topic

I didnt want to mention it, but yeah.

That's alright, the original topic isn't very interesting.

I think what KD is mentioning there goes back to the trouble I have comparing the first records and the most recent records in terms of melody, which Release Me seems to do. There was an inordinate amount of space given to Eddie on that first record; Stone, for example, absolutely composed the sparing chords of Black for a vocalist to fill in the blanks. As time went on (on Vitalogy but even on Vs.), the songs became much more tightly constructed, probably as they got more comfortable with each other as a band. Eventually, you've got something like LB, which is airtight melodically; I don't mean that it's good (or bad), but it's practically all sharp, clear melodies that fit in very structured songs. To be honesty, I'm not sure there's a PJ album farther apart melodically from LB than Ten. The latter couldn't feel more open in terms of melodies, while the former couldn't feel more closed.

Kevin Davis wrote:

stip wrote:Release Me's point is that the melodic underpinning of those early songs were stronger (i'll defer to people who know more about songwriting/construction to say whether or not that's true).

I don't know what kind of weight my opinion on the subject carries but for me it's pretty much the complete opposite, and is largely why the middle period remains so enjoyable to me while the early works become less and less interesting to me as time goes on. To me a lot of the early songs were very tuneless--Eddie would occasionally stumble across a compelling fragment but for the most part his melodies in those songs are in the same rambling, free-form language as the lyrics, which can lead to melodic brilliance if you're a master improviser, which Eddie is not. To my ears the melodies take on much more deliberate shapes around the time of ''Vitalogy,'' which not coincidentally is the first album where Eddie really takes the reins as the sole composer in the band. When he was composing vocal melodies over Stone's funk-rock riffs, he was pretty limited as to how he could employ chords and melody as cooperative songwriting devices (perhaps unsurprisingly, the most melodically accomplished song on ''Ten'' to my ears is ''Oceans,'' the music of which consists of a harmonically rich chord sequence as opposed to a single-note guitar riff repeated over and over). Starting around ''Vitalogy'' there is a lot more attention to the way harmonies within chords allow the vocal melodies to achieve different colors, different moods, presumably because the writing process is more malleable when you're the one in charge of both words and music and can bend and twist one as you feel it may suit the other. By the time they got back around to writing collaboratively again, Eddie's harmonic instincts (essentially, his understanding of the way certain melodies work as counterpoint to certain types of chords) were a lot stronger, and as a result he was composing tunes that to me felt a lot more like fully realized songs, as opposed to some of the early stuff which at times just seemed like riffs with vocals on top.

For my money songs like ''In Hiding'' and ''Parachutes'' represent the zenith of how Eddie was able to take another band member's arbitrary chord sequences and really make them into something truly musically compelling, in a compositional sense--like, if a jazz pianist were to perform unaccompanied versions of them, the bare bones of the compositions would hold up as something genuinely beautiful. Jeff and especially Stone both seem to me to really have had an inherent knack for this type of composition during this period--pretty much everything Stone wrote between ''Yield'' and ''Riot Act'' is full of clever, unexpected melodic and harmonic tensions, everything from the carnivalesque bridge in ''All Those Yesterdays'' to the after-hours melancholia of ''Fatal'' to the menacing dissonance of ''Rival.'' Matt's songs were rhythmic and mathematical as much as they were tuneful but I also think when you listen closely to them they possess a melodic density that is deliberate and consistent with the rest of material from those records.

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily equate ''catchy'' with ''melodic,'' though I concede they often correlate positively. The songs on ''Ten'' have big choruses with memorable, repeatable lines, and are sung with fervor; they are catchy. But take those superficial qualities away and I don't think any of those songs--''Alive,'' ''Jeremy,'' ''Even Flow''--offer anything that would stand up on strict melodic terms--i.e. as a combination of notes that really makes noteworthy use of the scale. There are many songs in the middle period which I would argue do just that.

I already had it covered but your input is appreciated nonetheless.

I don't like to let people get away with saying in 50 words what could be said in 1,400.

Kevin Davis wrote:

stip wrote:Release Me's point is that the melodic underpinning of those early songs were stronger (i'll defer to people who know more about songwriting/construction to say whether or not that's true).

I don't know what kind of weight my opinion on the subject carries but for me it's pretty much the complete opposite, and is largely why the middle period remains so enjoyable to me while the early works become less and less interesting to me as time goes on. To me a lot of the early songs were very tuneless--Eddie would occasionally stumble across a compelling fragment but for the most part his melodies in those songs are in the same rambling, free-form language as the lyrics, which can lead to melodic brilliance if you're a master improviser, which Eddie is not. To my ears the melodies take on much more deliberate shapes around the time of ''Vitalogy,'' which not coincidentally is the first album where Eddie really takes the reins as the sole composer in the band. When he was composing vocal melodies over Stone's funk-rock riffs, he was pretty limited as to how he could employ chords and melody as cooperative songwriting devices (perhaps unsurprisingly, the most melodically accomplished song on ''Ten'' to my ears is ''Oceans,'' the music of which consists of a harmonically rich chord sequence as opposed to a single-note guitar riff repeated over and over). Starting around ''Vitalogy'' there is a lot more attention to the way harmonies within chords allow the vocal melodies to achieve different colors, different moods, presumably because the writing process is more malleable when you're the one in charge of both words and music and can bend and twist one as you feel it may suit the other. By the time they got back around to writing collaboratively again, Eddie's harmonic instincts (essentially, his understanding of the way certain melodies work as counterpoint to certain types of chords) were a lot stronger, and as a result he was composing tunes that to me felt a lot more like fully realized songs, as opposed to some of the early stuff which at times just seemed like riffs with vocals on top.

For my money songs like ''In Hiding'' and ''Parachutes'' represent the zenith of how Eddie was able to take another band member's arbitrary chord sequences and really make them into something truly musically compelling, in a compositional sense--like, if a jazz pianist were to perform unaccompanied versions of them, the bare bones of the compositions would hold up as something genuinely beautiful. Jeff and especially Stone both seem to me to really have had an inherent knack for this type of composition during this period--pretty much everything Stone wrote between ''Yield'' and ''Riot Act'' is full of clever, unexpected melodic and harmonic tensions, everything from the carnivalesque bridge in ''All Those Yesterdays'' to the after-hours melancholia of ''Fatal'' to the menacing dissonance of ''Rival.'' Matt's songs were rhythmic and mathematical as much as they were tuneful but I also think when you listen closely to them they possess a melodic density that is deliberate and consistent with the rest of material from those records.

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily equate ''catchy'' with ''melodic,'' though I concede they often correlate positively. The songs on ''Ten'' have big choruses with memorable, repeatable lines, and are sung with fervor; they are catchy. But take those superficial qualities away and I don't think any of those songs--''Alive,'' ''Jeremy,'' ''Even Flow''--offer anything that would stand up on strict melodic terms--i.e. as a combination of notes that really makes noteworthy use of the scale. There are many songs in the middle period which I would argue do just that.

Interesting. I've probably been equating catchy with melodic.

Me too.

Meh. I, unfortunately, don't have anything constructive to add to the discussion of this song, since I couldn't even sit all the way through it. It's pretty dull, the recycled melody is pretty glaring, and it's not really a good enough quality recording to even try to pay attention to what's going on. Maybe I'll check it out later if a better version surfaces.

I haven't bothered listening to this thing yet. I don't think I really care. Solo EV doesn't do much for me...I haven't listened to ITW in years, and I gave Uke Songs one spin and decided I don't care if I ever hear it again or not.

it's definitely an ed solo number.

Heathen wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

stip wrote:Release Me's point is that the melodic underpinning of those early songs were stronger (i'll defer to people who know more about songwriting/construction to say whether or not that's true).

I don't know what kind of weight my opinion on the subject carries but for me it's pretty much the complete opposite, and is largely why the middle period remains so enjoyable to me while the early works become less and less interesting to me as time goes on. To me a lot of the early songs were very tuneless--Eddie would occasionally stumble across a compelling fragment but for the most part his melodies in those songs are in the same rambling, free-form language as the lyrics, which can lead to melodic brilliance if you're a master improviser, which Eddie is not. To my ears the melodies take on much more deliberate shapes around the time of ''Vitalogy,'' which not coincidentally is the first album where Eddie really takes the reins as the sole composer in the band. When he was composing vocal melodies over Stone's funk-rock riffs, he was pretty limited as to how he could employ chords and melody as cooperative songwriting devices (perhaps unsurprisingly, the most melodically accomplished song on ''Ten'' to my ears is ''Oceans,'' the music of which consists of a harmonically rich chord sequence as opposed to a single-note guitar riff repeated over and over). Starting around ''Vitalogy'' there is a lot more attention to the way harmonies within chords allow the vocal melodies to achieve different colors, different moods, presumably because the writing process is more malleable when you're the one in charge of both words and music and can bend and twist one as you feel it may suit the other. By the time they got back around to writing collaboratively again, Eddie's harmonic instincts (essentially, his understanding of the way certain melodies work as counterpoint to certain types of chords) were a lot stronger, and as a result he was composing tunes that to me felt a lot more like fully realized songs, as opposed to some of the early stuff which at times just seemed like riffs with vocals on top.

For my money songs like ''In Hiding'' and ''Parachutes'' represent the zenith of how Eddie was able to take another band member's arbitrary chord sequences and really make them into something truly musically compelling, in a compositional sense--like, if a jazz pianist were to perform unaccompanied versions of them, the bare bones of the compositions would hold up as something genuinely beautiful. Jeff and especially Stone both seem to me to really have had an inherent knack for this type of composition during this period--pretty much everything Stone wrote between ''Yield'' and ''Riot Act'' is full of clever, unexpected melodic and harmonic tensions, everything from the carnivalesque bridge in ''All Those Yesterdays'' to the after-hours melancholia of ''Fatal'' to the menacing dissonance of ''Rival.'' Matt's songs were rhythmic and mathematical as much as they were tuneful but I also think when you listen closely to them they possess a melodic density that is deliberate and consistent with the rest of material from those records.

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily equate ''catchy'' with ''melodic,'' though I concede they often correlate positively. The songs on ''Ten'' have big choruses with memorable, repeatable lines, and are sung with fervor; they are catchy. But take those superficial qualities away and I don't think any of those songs--''Alive,'' ''Jeremy,'' ''Even Flow''--offer anything that would stand up on strict melodic terms--i.e. as a combination of notes that really makes noteworthy use of the scale. There are many songs in the middle period which I would argue do just that.

I already had it covered but your input is appreciated nonetheless.

KD knows what's up.

stip wrote:it's definitely an ed solo number.

Stip is stipulatin'

I just meant in terms of its feel. If you don't like those normally you won't find anything here. Who knows what, if anything, PJ will do with it

stip wrote:I just meant in terms of its feel. If you don't like those normally you won't find anything here. Who knows what, if anything, PJ will do with it

Nothing. At least for another 5 years.

At least it's new music presented in a public forum.

Could be from that film soundtrack..out of the furnace?

His 'now I'll go learn it'comment led me to believe it was just written

And there weren't enough rod lyrics for out of the furnace

it's the closing track to the new Rodzilla movie