Red Mosquito

Lament wrote:How specific will our criteria need to get for Pearl Jam to decisively be the greatest band of all-time?

number of t-shirts owned

Lament wrote:How specific will our criteria need to get for Pearl Jam to decisively be the greatest band of all-time?

Bands from Seattle with at least one album released in 1991, 1996, and 2000 and currently earns more in one solid touring month than most people earn in a lifetime and has at least one member who can be described as "chirpy."

warehouse wrote:

Heathen wrote:

warehouse wrote:when people here try to distinguish the first half of pearl jam's career vs the second, do people purposely look over what happened at roskilde in 2000? it seems to me if you are trying to narrow down when pearl jam "changed", seeing a bunch of fans die in front of them would be the most likely place.

In retrospect, these fans were lucky to not have to witness the post-riot act moneygrab.

not only isnt this funny, its borderline offensive. i know people here constantly try to be witty and whatnot, but this was a terrible attempt

Yeah, that's just poor taste

They do seem to own a lot of t-shirts.

Leatherhead wrote:

bodysnatcher wrote:lol, people are saying pearl jam are above radiohead?

Pearl Jam are so much better than Radiohead. Even moneygrabbing Pearl Jam.

I can definitely respect your opinion. And at one point I would have completely agreed with you. But with my shifting musical tastes over the last 10-15 years, Radiohead is in a different league for me. The kind of league where I'll be bragging to younger kids when I'm older that I was around for them.

McParadigm wrote:

Lament wrote:How specific will our criteria need to get for Pearl Jam to decisively be the greatest band of all-time?

Bands from Seattle with at least one album released in 1991, 1996, and 2000 and currently earns more in one solid touring month than most people earn in a lifetime and has at least one member who can be described as "chirpy."

See guys? Pearl Jam is the greatest band ever.

hlniv wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Heathen wrote:

warehouse wrote:when people here try to distinguish the first half of pearl jam's career vs the second, do people purposely look over what happened at roskilde in 2000? it seems to me if you are trying to narrow down when pearl jam "changed", seeing a bunch of fans die in front of them would be the most likely place.

In retrospect, these fans were lucky to not have to witness the post-riot act moneygrab.

not only isnt this funny, its borderline offensive. i know people here constantly try to be witty and whatnot, but this was a terrible attempt

Yeah, that's just poor taste

Those people died, Heathen.

warehouse wrote:when people here try to distinguish the first half of pearl jam's career vs the second, do people purposely look over what happened at roskilde in 2000? it seems to me if you are trying to narrow down when pearl jam "changed", seeing a bunch of fans die in front of them would be the most likely place.

I think if you want to nail down a definitive point, Roskilde would be the easy target, and probably the right one. But Roskilde or no Roskilde, I think this evolution of PJ would have happened either way as they aged.

theplatypus wrote:

hlniv wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Heathen wrote:

warehouse wrote:when people here try to distinguish the first half of pearl jam's career vs the second, do people purposely look over what happened at roskilde in 2000? it seems to me if you are trying to narrow down when pearl jam "changed", seeing a bunch of fans die in front of them would be the most likely place.

In retrospect, these fans were lucky to not have to witness the post-riot act moneygrab.

not only isnt this funny, its borderline offensive. i know people here constantly try to be witty and whatnot, but this was a terrible attempt

Yeah, that's just poor taste

Those people died, Heathen.

Hey don't call him a oh that's his name

I hope when they have the Pearl Jam exhibit at the Rock 'N' Roll Hall of Fame they display the handwritten notes they took when planning out the Post-Riot Act Moneygrab. And I hope it's written in Jeff's signature style.

And the shoe stealer encased in carbonite.

Actually, this is a perfect example of my disappointment with PJ's current output. Pendulum was written in what, 2008, right? It was left off of Backspacer, not selected for various reasons, didn't "fit" the album, or whatever. The reality is that it wasn't (and still isn't) a fully developed song. It's a neat little effects trick with some type of electronic percussion that Jeff did something cool with. Ed writes some vague lyrics 5 years later and they slap a title on it, and label it a Pearl Jam song. Plop it just a couple of tunes ahead of a re-recording of an EV solo song, and BAM - two tracks done for the new album. Neither are bad Pearl Jam, and both are enjoyable listens on the album, but still, neither is singularly impressive.

The current Pearl Jam musical product is really just about slappin' shit together and trying to sell records. OK fine. Now, it's certainly not necessarily a bad thing to revisit older songs left on the cutting block and put them on new records. But, it's just proves that there's not that much effort put in when it's done in tandem with a complete lack of B-sides or anything else creatively productive in the 3 years before or likely 4-5 years after. We have Of The Earth and Ole and not much else.

I really don't think it's like that. They spent a shitton of time on those records. In fact, if there's any argument I'd make against those albums, it's that they didn't leave some songs alone enough. Every single second of the last 3 albums was quite meticulously thought through by the band. Where, with Vitalogy and No Code it was closer to a stream of consciousness thing pouring out of them that they just left alone and released. If anything, they were just slapping songs together during those albums, it's just that they are "purer" artistically cause they were left alone and were closer to how they were originally written. You see the interviews and Jeff says he wishes he had more time with those records. They would have surely dug more into songs like In My Tree.

I think what they've been trying to do these last few records (or post-Riot Act moneygrab as it is erroneously called here) is make the chorusus and verses as hard-hitting and immediate as possible. Resolve the melody as soon as possible, don't let it linger, and hit em hard with the chorus. When there's a bridge, get right to it and then get out and get back to the song. They spent alot of time just skimming these songs down as much as they could. What you get are songs that, atleast try to attempt to engage immediatately, and not expect the listener to invest extra time, just grab em while you got em. What happens, and what I think some people object to, is that when a melody resolves itself too fast, the listener doesn't have enough to dig into on those repeated listens and sometimes loses steam with them. And some of the "fat" they've cut out has been some of the quirkier parts that they would have left in between Vitalogy and Riot Act. All of those albums had little quirks and experiments left in.

Vitalogy, No Code, and Riot Act in particular are albums where they went in and out of the studio in a few sessions and left those songs alone. S/t, especially, was analyzed from every angle. Backspacer and LB had shorter studio sessions but they clearly spent alot of time honing in on parts to make them as streamlined as possible. Maybe not yeilding the result some people wanted, but it definitely wasn't just slapping shit together.

All of this talk of the band getting lazier is hogwash. In fact, they've probably been overanalyzing their songs too much and taken off some of the quirkier parts that have endeared the hardcore fans in the middle years or just making the melody so concise that it doesn't veer off enough. I'd take the argument that they've overdone these last 3 records rather than underdone.

I wish they had wardrobe changes for different songs. Not like major ones, but if they're playing a song from Ten I'd appreciate it if Jeff put on one of those big hats for it. And Mike could puff his cheeks out when they play stuff from No Code. It would add to my concert-going experience.

Tuolumne wrote:They spent a shitton of time on those records. In fact, if there's any argument I'd make against those albums, it's that they didn't leave some songs alone enough. Every single second of the last 3 albums was quite meticulously thought through by the band. Where, with Vitalogy and No Code it was closer to a stream of consciousness thing pouring out of them that they just left alone and released. If anything, they were just slapping songs together during those albums, it's just that they are "purer" artistically cause they were left alone and were closer to how they were originally written.

Two two-week sessions.

I think that what you are saying is overlapping with the truth of it, though.

First of all, SOMEone was overthinking these records. I just don't believe it was the band.

Second of all, with those earlier records, it wasn't about the amount of time spent on recording as much as it was the constant output of material. You definitely do write a different type of song (not style, not genre...just a different type) when you are writing all the time, than you do when you aren't.

There are a lot of reasons for this, I'm sure, but one of them is that when you write more you are more likely to go "Oh, I've already done something just like this just recently," or "I do a lot of songs that exhibit this type of change or idea," both of which end up getting followed-up by "What else could I do with it that would be interesting?" When you write a song every three-to-four months, or just take a year long break from it, older or easier ideas reacquire a false sense of novelty. You get the "brand new thought" pleasure-center reward for something that is, ultimately, just repetition.

Oh they're definitely lazier.

i would be

me too.

McParadigm wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:They spent a shitton of time on those records. In fact, if there's any argument I'd make against those albums, it's that they didn't leave some songs alone enough. Every single second of the last 3 albums was quite meticulously thought through by the band. Where, with Vitalogy and No Code it was closer to a stream of consciousness thing pouring out of them that they just left alone and released. If anything, they were just slapping songs together during those albums, it's just that they are "purer" artistically cause they were left alone and were closer to how they were originally written.

Two two-week sessions.

I think that what you are saying is overlapping with the truth of it, though.

First of all, SOMEone was overthinking these records. I just don't believe it was the band.

Second of all, with those earlier records, it wasn't about the amount of time spent on recording as much as it was the constant output of material. You definitely do write a different type of song (not style, not genre...just a different type) when you are writing all the time, than you do when you aren't.

There are a lot of reasons for this, I'm sure, but one of them is that when you write more you are more likely to go "Oh, I've already done something just like this just recently," or "I do a lot of songs that exhibit this type of change or idea," both of which end up getting followed-up by "What else could I do with it that would be interesting?" When you write a song every three-to-four months, or just take a year long break from it, older or easier ideas reacquire a false sense of novelty. You get the "brand new thought" pleasure-center reward for something that is, ultimately, just repetition.

You do make very solid points on the benefits of constant songwriting that I actually agree with. But how will we ever know how many songs they really were writing? They have't released b-sides. It's my belief that they just want the albums to speak for themselves and I think they were leery of having b-sides outshine and getting alot of extra attention. They just wanted the albums to speak for themselves, I believe.

As far as studio sessions, that doesn't account for the writing and analyzing process. Backspacer and Lightning Bolt gestated for a long time. From interviews we know they did writing and demo sessions and took lots of break with touring and their various solo ventures. You make a valid point on the "false sense of novelty" of older songs and that may have in fact happened. The last 3 albums are 'middle of the pack' for me, and perhaps what you are saying is a reason why they didn't have the freshness and creativity that wouldn't made them higher.

But, I think they honed in and analyzed much more on these albums (and prior to going into the studio in hte last 2). BoB could be a major factor of the last 2 and the "someone" who was participating in the analyzing, but not without the band and not because they band was lazy.

If there's process related weakness in the last 3 albums, it's that S/t had too much time on the hopper, and Backspacer and LB a little too much gestational time and involvement by BoB in streamlining the songs. And, possibly the biggest process point we haven't takled about here is song-selection itself. All the band members bring in demos, which one's do the others gravitate to? How did BoB intervene (or interrupt)? Process related issues, very possible. Laziness, I just don't think so.

theplatypus wrote:

hlniv wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Heathen wrote:

warehouse wrote:when people here try to distinguish the first half of pearl jam's career vs the second, do people purposely look over what happened at roskilde in 2000? it seems to me if you are trying to narrow down when pearl jam "changed", seeing a bunch of fans die in front of them would be the most likely place.

In retrospect, these fans were lucky to not have to witness the post-riot act moneygrab.

not only isnt this funny, its borderline offensive. i know people here constantly try to be witty and whatnot, but this was a terrible attempt

Yeah, that's just poor taste

Those people died, Heathen.

It's just too soon; the statue of limitations is however long it was before Mel Brooks made The Producers after Hitler's death. Too lazy to look.

At least I didn't make a joke about disabled people!