Red Mosquito

durdencommatyler wrote:

Kaius wrote:I haven't seen Watchmen or Guardians.

Watchmen is fantastic.

It's true. Rorschach is quite the charmer.

bada wrote:I'm not interested in arguing that someone should like this movie more than say Ant-Man only that the idea that BvS is in order of magnitudes way way worse feels like a pile on based on a number of factors having little to do with the movie itself.

RT just measures whether critics like something more. 80% of critics apparently thought Ant-Man was pretty good. 70% of critics thought BvS was not pretty good

I'm pretty cynical about critics in general. I tend to believe that the old adage that "those who can't, become critics" is fairly true, more often than not. Critics are failed artists or bitter and jealous people, far more interested in their own ego than in having a fruitful conversation about art. Are there exceptions? Of course there are. But, from what I've seen, they are rare.

So, what critics have to say about this movie -- or any movie -- is far less valuable to me than what regular people have to say about the movie. And the fact that the post opening weekend numbers have taken a nose-dive, along with the fact that the movie hasn't broken even yet (despite a "record breaking" opening), and the way people are talking about it, tells me a lot about the movie. It doesn't tell me whether or not the movie is any good per se, but it does tell me a lot.

And that information would seem to contradict bada's notion that critics are just out to destroy here. All of this is subjective and meaningless. Just because one person likes or hates something doesn't mean the next one will. Those who like it, good! Enjoy the fucking movie and continue to talk intelligently about why you like it. Those who don't? Good! Don't be dicks about it and try to further the conversation in a productive way or go watch something else.

theplatypus wrote:

bada wrote:I'm not interested in arguing that someone should like this movie more than say Ant-Man

I would. It is approximately a million times better than Ant-Man on a number of different levels.

I agree wholeheartedly but I'm mostly just trying to talk about the overwhelming negative response to BvS being more about the toxic attitudes directed towards the movie before it even went before the cameras and how the critical response was more about continuing that narrative than a real critique of what was onscreen.

bada wrote:

theplatypus wrote:

bada wrote:I'm not interested in arguing that someone should like this movie more than say Ant-Man

I would. It is approximately a million times better than Ant-Man on a number of different levels.

I agree wholeheartedly but I'm mostly just trying to talk about the overwhelming negative response to BvS being more about the toxic attitudes directed towards the movie before it even went before the cameras and how the critical response was more about continuing that narrative than a real critique of what was onscreen.

Like most anecdotal evidence/discussion, this doesn't mean much, but I just didn't see much of a mass predisposition toward disliking this movie before it came out. I mean, I guess there were people that were frustrated with MoS and all the destruction and they demanded a response from Snyder (like he owed them anything, hilarious). So maybe that's kind of what you're talking about. But it seemed to me, especially once the trailers hit, that people were generally pretty fucking excited for the movie.

Thing is most RT reviews I read were only lukewarm on it, not loathing. But when they all get lumped into the "rotten" group it gets really stupid. The headlines point out the low number as if it's an accurate measure of its quality, when all it means is that a large percentage of critics found it to be not good to terrible.

durdencommatyler wrote:I'm pretty cynical about critics in general. I tend to believe that the old adage that "those who can't, become critics" is fairly true, more often than not. Critics are failed artists or bitter and jealous people, far more interested in their own ego than in having a fruitful conversation about art. Are there exceptions? Of course there are. But, from what I've seen, they are rare.

So, what critics have to say about this movie -- or any movie -- is far less valuable to me than what regular people have to say about the movie. And the fact that the post opening weekend numbers have taken a nose-dive, along with the fact that the movie hasn't broken even yet (despite a "record breaking" opening), and the way people are talking about it, tells me a lot about the movie. It doesn't tell me whether or not the movie is any good per se, but it does tell me a lot.

And that information would seem to contradict bada's notion that critics are just out to destroy here. All of this is subjective and meaningless. Just because one person likes or hates something doesn't mean the next one will. Those who like it, good! Enjoy the fucking movie and continue to talk intelligently about why you like it. Those who don't? Good! Don't be dicks about it and try to further the conversation in a productive way or go watch something else.

I agree with everything you say here but it does feel to me that the negativity directed towards the movie in it's development influenced a bad critical response which was picked up my web sites and TV outlets which set the narrative that this movie sucks. It becomes a runaway train. I think people see all that and think pass. I guess bottom line I feel like people went in to say Star Wars really hoping it would be good and went into BvS really hoping it was a shit show.

I certainly didn't hope or want it to be shit. I don't believe anyone did except the Marvel hardcore fans. That whole DC v Marvel thing n all. I thought it was easily gonna be a great movie. How hard could it be to screw this up? Impossible. And they fucked it. Completely.

Dime I'm sorry...I'm a fan of yours....but you are so into arguing with LV I don't believe for a second you didn't want this to be bad so you could troll him in response to his Star Wars hate.

bada wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I'm pretty cynical about critics in general. I tend to believe that the old adage that "those who can't, become critics" is fairly true, more often than not. Critics are failed artists or bitter and jealous people, far more interested in their own ego than in having a fruitful conversation about art. Are there exceptions? Of course there are. But, from what I've seen, they are rare.

So, what critics have to say about this movie -- or any movie -- is far less valuable to me than what regular people have to say about the movie. And the fact that the post opening weekend numbers have taken a nose-dive, along with the fact that the movie hasn't broken even yet (despite a "record breaking" opening), and the way people are talking about it, tells me a lot about the movie. It doesn't tell me whether or not the movie is any good per se, but it does tell me a lot.

And that information would seem to contradict bada's notion that critics are just out to destroy here. All of this is subjective and meaningless. Just because one person likes or hates something doesn't mean the next one will. Those who like it, good! Enjoy the fucking movie and continue to talk intelligently about why you like it. Those who don't? Good! Don't be dicks about it and try to further the conversation in a productive way or go watch something else.

I agree with everything you say here but it does feel to me that the negativity directed towards the movie in it's development influenced a bad critical response which was picked up my web sites and TV outlets which set the narrative that this movie sucks. It becomes a runaway train. I think people see all that and think pass. I guess bottom line I feel like people went in to say Star Wars really hoping it would be good and went into BvS really hoping it was a shit show.

Certainly possible. That kind of thing has happened before and will happen again, unfortunately. I guess, in my own person experience though, I don't know anyone, nor did I read anything by anyone online or whatever, that wanted this to be terrible. I did see a lot of people interested in seeing it in spite of the terrible reviews and hoping against hope that it would be good. Some felt, like you, that the critics were dead wrong, and others felt that the reviews were right on and that the movie is actually a shit show.

I haven't seen it, and won't until it's on Netflix or HBO or something, so I can't speak to any of this on a personal level. Certainly, I think the bottom line is people should see things and decide for themselves and not let critics dictate their tastes.

Agreed. I could be way off base here. Perhaps its nothing more than people just thought it wasn't very good and I'm letting comment sections on various movie sites influence me too much.

bada wrote:Agreed. I could be way off base here. Perhaps its nothing more than people just thought it wasn't very good and I'm letting comment sections on various movie sites influence me too much.

Or you could be dead right and I just haven't encountered the same feedback/comments that you have. Either way, what matters is that you saw the movie and you enjoyed it and you've been able to talk about why you liked it in an engaging, coherent, and thought provoking way.

Haters are just haters. And they're easy to spot because their biggest complaints are things like "Wonder Woman didn't have big enough boobs!"

It's just disappointing to me that the aggregate word on this film is it's bad cause I think it deserves much better than that. I strangely feel bad for all the creative folks involved. Not sure why I care. Poor sad Affleck got to me I guess.

bada wrote:It's just disappointing to me that the aggregate word on this film is it's bad cause I think it deserves much better than that. I strangely feel bad for all the creative folks involved. Not sure why I care. Poor sad Affleck got to me I guess.

Well, it's hard for me to have too much sympathy for that guy. But I do kinda feel what you're saying. Obviously, a tremendous amount of thought, effort, creativity, and heart went into making the movie. I can tell that and I haven't even seen it. Though, your posts in this thread have me actually considering seeing the thing in theaters, I have to admit.

Maybe that's the inverse of what you're talking about.

But your love for this (and Jorge and Jordan's thoughts) have been really persuasive.

Besides the only way to prove my theory would be if Flash went back in time and convinced all the critics to give the movie amazing reviews and then we measure the audience and internet response. I bet it makes over a billion then!

....but he's so sad Joey!

bada wrote:Besides the only way to prove my theory would be if Flash went back in time and convinced all the critics to give the movie amazing reviews and then we measure the audience and internet response. I bet it makes over a billion then!

I do think there is something to the whole "Superhero fatigue" argument, too. The market is over saturated. Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how good the movie is when people are burnt out. I guess we'll see what happens with CA:Civil War and X-Men. If those movies rock out then maybe this argument is moot.

Of course, it is also possible that people, in general, just didn't like the movie. Fight Club was considered a box office dud in 1999 and didn't become a rave cult hit until DVD. So...

bada wrote:....but he's so sad Joey!

Good. He should be.

Spoiler: show

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She annoyed me on Felicity she had it coming.