Red Mosquito

I've sometimes thought guy too. In interviews and watching them play, sometimes you would feel that sense of wonder from them. 'Did we really write this?'
Sometimes in a good sense, sometimes not so good.

As to it not being there anymore, I'd put that down to a band knowing what they're about and what they're trying to achieve. Rather than any loss of interest or talent on their behalf.

Kevin Davis wrote:

harmless wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:What does that signify, when people respond to your post by posting a picture of your avatar?

It's like LOOK AT YOURSELF. WHAT HAVE YOU BECOME?

I'm not sure really, but I've not done it before so it'll be a while before I discover the technique's best uses.

I think the reality for me is that the band is just moving in a direction I don't want them to move in, and "Mind Your Manners" is the first time I've really found myself without the reserve of enthusiasm to follow them down the path. I've been very patient as they've moved further away from what I consider to be their best records, narrowed their scope of influence, and bereft their music of the kind of texture, nuance, and stylistic variation that I thought made their great albums great. During their greatest years I felt like you could peel back the outermost layer of their songs and find all kinds of flavors and juices bubbling underneath, and I'm not just talking about the production and sound of the records--I'm talking about the quirks and complexities of the compositions, and the care and precision of the arrangements. Since "S/T," what you see when you pull back that outermost layer is just a rusty frame. I'm not saying the music is meaningless but I do think that multi-dimensional element of their sound is pretty much gone--even on songs I really love like "Johnny Guitar" and "Parachutes," what you see is what you get. There was a mystery to their middle-period records, a sense that the band was as surprised by the stuff they were coming up with as the audience was, that just isn't there anymore.

To that end, "MYM" just sounds like more of the same to me. To me it sounds like it could have fit on "S/T" or "Backspacer" almost verbatim.

Well, I'm not sure I agree about MYM, but I agree in general, especially with the lack of nuance / texture / mystery in PJ's music since S/T. I guess that at this time in my life I'm happy that some music I listen to (not all) is superficial, and I enjoy it within whatever that context is. By now, PJ have set up a new context for themselves, whatever that is, and whether you like it or not. I've adjusted to it and think they've got some awful songs and great songs within it. There's a tinge of sadness in posts like this just because they remind me that PJ are not stylistically, or even ethically, the band I grew up with. But yeah, new context: classic rock fused with a little of what they used to do, occasionally with a pop sheen. Neatly packaged. It's not really my thing overall, but it's OK. I can dig it. What I'm really valuing at the moment is music that lifts my spirits really quickly. I guess PJ works for me now when that happens. When I want to go back to a song over and over again. I don't think PJ will inspire the depth of discussion around their music that they did. I don't think their music will accompany me into the deepest, darkest territory of my life, like it did. But I still dig it wherever possible and if the new album confidently hangs together, whatever 'schtick' it has, I'll like it a lot.

Not everything has to be deep and loaded with meaning either though. Backspacer succeeded at being a break from that I think and it obviously threw fans who need and expect all that depth to be there, for a loop.

On the one hand, I want the same thing that most other people here want from them. On the other, they are talented enough to do what they do with some success (and as many failures). It can be a good song even though I'm not personally interested in it.

I think that's what I said, dime: not everything has to be deep and meaningful. But, the thing is, before S/T (and certainly before Backspacer), 99.9% of their material had been deep and meaningful. They asked us to make a massive adjustment to a new sound. Ed's new ambition seems to be to jump on the punk tradition and create the world's best 3 minute poprock song. And that's OK but it's not my thing. However, I understand it's a geek obsession for him, and I have my own, and every relationship needs two people to have the freedom to enjoy their separate pursuits. And when they meet, that's cool. As I said, I don't expect much of PJ's music to be deep and meaningful at all anymore, and yet here I am, still on board and on the same page... possibly in a different book, but the same page nonetheless.

I forgot to say, but it definitely helps that PJ are still writing about things that I'm passionate about. Backspacer didn't engage me emotionally for very long, but when it did, we had just moved down to the south coast of England, so songs about waves and the sea, as well as family and children etc. It worked. It did it for me, albeit in a different way to when I was younger. The intensity wasn't there, nor the nostalgia, but a new depth of appreciation for what they still had to say to me as an adult was still there. MYM is also a song which speaks to me, due to my own obsession with attacking religious fundamentalism and dogmatic evangelical theology. Judging by the artwork, these are themes that may well surface over this new album. Musical styles just might be peripheral to how well they've handled those themes across the album. If it can hang together, the album has a chance of being a big-hitter. This will be in contrast to S/T, which overall had nothing to say to me thematically. I'm a pacifist and hate war. I hated George Bush. But didn't everyone? Well, of course not, but everyone I surround myself with did... so it just didn't seem as necessary as an album. Neil Young's anti-Bush album (I forget what it's called) was a much more interesting treatment of the same subject. Fascinating actually. And I guess at that point I realised how PJ's music had drifted from Neil Young.

BurtReynolds wrote:On the one hand, I want the same thing that most other people here want from them. On the other, they are talented enough to do what they do with some success (and as many failures). It can be a good song even though I'm not personally interested in it.

This. Always thought it was the sign of a great band if there's something there for everyone to get their teeth into. And It'd be weird if we all liked all of it. I'd be suspicious if that ever happened.

harmless wrote:I think that's what I said, dime: not everything has to be deep and meaningful. But, the thing is, before S/T (and certainly before Backspacer), 99.9% of their material had been deep and meaningful. They asked us to make a massive adjustment to a new sound. Ed's new ambition seems to be to jump on the punk tradition and create the world's best 3 minute poprock song. And that's OK but it's not my thing. However, I understand it's a geek obsession for him, and I have my own, and every relationship needs two people to have the freedom to enjoy their separate pursuits. And when they meet, that's cool. As I said, I don't expect much of PJ's music to be deep and meaningful at all anymore, and yet here I am, still on board and on the same page... possibly in a different book, but the same page nonetheless.

i just wonder what caused that change in direction between Riot Act and ST. not just musically, but in other ways as well.

BurtReynolds wrote:

harmless wrote:I think that's what I said, dime: not everything has to be deep and meaningful. But, the thing is, before S/T (and certainly before Backspacer), 99.9% of their material had been deep and meaningful. They asked us to make a massive adjustment to a new sound. Ed's new ambition seems to be to jump on the punk tradition and create the world's best 3 minute poprock song. And that's OK but it's not my thing. However, I understand it's a geek obsession for him, and I have my own, and every relationship needs two people to have the freedom to enjoy their separate pursuits. And when they meet, that's cool. As I said, I don't expect much of PJ's music to be deep and meaningful at all anymore, and yet here I am, still on board and on the same page... possibly in a different book, but the same page nonetheless.

i just wonder what caused that change in direction between Riot Act and ST. not just musically, but in other ways as well.

Me too, and I'd love to know. I guess that's why people wanted more from PJ20, maybe. They've changed SO much, so fast (in the grand scheme of things) but have just kind of done it, casually and without comment as to how or why. Not that we're entitled to an explanation or anything, but we can only speculate and that's frustrating. I would hazard a guess that Roskilde affected them more deeply than we can possibly know, and possibly changed the entire aesthetic and aim of the band. That change has manifested itself more over time, but, well, maybe we have the music of post-trauma in late PJ.

harmless wrote:I think that's what I said, dime: not everything has to be deep and meaningful. But, the thing is, before S/T (and certainly before Backspacer), 99.9% of their material had been deep and meaningful. They asked us to make a massive adjustment to a new sound. Ed's new ambition seems to be to jump on the punk tradition and create the world's best 3 minute poprock song. And that's OK but it's not my thing. However, I understand it's a geek obsession for him, and I have my own, and every relationship needs two people to have the freedom to enjoy their separate pursuits. And when they meet, that's cool. As I said, I don't expect much of PJ's music to be deep and meaningful at all anymore, and yet here I am, still on board and on the same page... possibly in a different book, but the same page nonetheless.

I forgot to say, but it definitely helps that PJ are still writing about things that I'm passionate about. Backspacer didn't engage me emotionally for very long, but when it did, we had just moved down to the south coast of England, so songs about waves and the sea, as well as family and children etc. It worked. It did it for me, albeit in a different way to when I was younger. The intensity wasn't there, nor the nostalgia, but a new depth of appreciation for what they still had to say to me as an adult was still there. MYM is also a song which speaks to me, due to my own obsession with attacking religious fundamentalism and dogmatic evangelical theology. Judging by the artwork, these are themes that may well surface over this new album. Musical styles just might be peripheral to how well they've handled those themes across the album. If it can hang together, the album has a chance of being a big-hitter. This will be in contrast to S/T, which overall had nothing to say to me thematically. I'm a pacifist and hate war. I hated George Bush. But didn't everyone? Well, of course not, but everyone I surround myself with did... so it just didn't seem as necessary as an album. Neil Young's anti-Bush album (I forget what it's called) was a much more interesting treatment of the same subject. Fascinating actually. And I guess at that point I realised how PJ's music had drifted from Neil Young.

I often wish it would drift back to Neil Young, but they've been there and done it as well as they can hope. A lot of this speaks more to our needs and demands and expectations. I gave up depending too much on PJs output, instead focusing on seeing them live and finding release and catharsis there. We spoke about this already I know, but having heard about ed reall struggling with the lyrics for ST and the follow on attitude in Backspacer, of 'if its troublesome, dump it' makes sense for him maybe, but I found alarming.
Maybe people In the fan base aren't aware of that happening, I know it's been discussed here certainly, but having seen that happen and hearig the results, that's a clear indicator to us that we should pull back our expectations and not place so much importance in what they have to say. I know I did.

It's just a band. That seems to get almost totally ignored nowadays.

dimejinky99 wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:On the one hand, I want the same thing that most other people here want from them. On the other, they are talented enough to do what they do with some success (and as many failures). It can be a good song even though I'm not personally interested in it.

This. Always thought it was the sign of a great band if there's something there for everyone to get their teeth into. And It'd be weird if we all liked all of it. I'd be suspicious if that ever happened.

I liked all of it up to until Riot Act. Not a single bad song on those first 7 albums. That's why this gradual transformation has been weird for me, so I've kind of simultaneously been wanting them to do something similar to what I loved about them before whilst also knowing that they never will and the changes have been too extreme to go backwards. In the end I just hope they record something quality again, and the first 7 albums made me trust that they would, and will, whatever it sounds like. I keep coming back to PJ because I have no idea what anything will sound like anymore, and that's really exciting and scary. It's like gambling and I guess I'm addicted to PJ in the same way, even if I kept losing.

They never would go backwards and when we have accused them of doing so, they haven't succeeded. (Amongst the waves discussion the other day, just as an example)

dimejinky99 wrote:

harmless wrote:I think that's what I said, dime: not everything has to be deep and meaningful. But, the thing is, before S/T (and certainly before Backspacer), 99.9% of their material had been deep and meaningful. They asked us to make a massive adjustment to a new sound. Ed's new ambition seems to be to jump on the punk tradition and create the world's best 3 minute poprock song. And that's OK but it's not my thing. However, I understand it's a geek obsession for him, and I have my own, and every relationship needs two people to have the freedom to enjoy their separate pursuits. And when they meet, that's cool. As I said, I don't expect much of PJ's music to be deep and meaningful at all anymore, and yet here I am, still on board and on the same page... possibly in a different book, but the same page nonetheless.

I forgot to say, but it definitely helps that PJ are still writing about things that I'm passionate about. Backspacer didn't engage me emotionally for very long, but when it did, we had just moved down to the south coast of England, so songs about waves and the sea, as well as family and children etc. It worked. It did it for me, albeit in a different way to when I was younger. The intensity wasn't there, nor the nostalgia, but a new depth of appreciation for what they still had to say to me as an adult was still there. MYM is also a song which speaks to me, due to my own obsession with attacking religious fundamentalism and dogmatic evangelical theology. Judging by the artwork, these are themes that may well surface over this new album. Musical styles just might be peripheral to how well they've handled those themes across the album. If it can hang together, the album has a chance of being a big-hitter. This will be in contrast to S/T, which overall had nothing to say to me thematically. I'm a pacifist and hate war. I hated George Bush. But didn't everyone? Well, of course not, but everyone I surround myself with did... so it just didn't seem as necessary as an album. Neil Young's anti-Bush album (I forget what it's called) was a much more interesting treatment of the same subject. Fascinating actually. And I guess at that point I realised how PJ's music had drifted from Neil Young.

I often wish it would drift back to Neil Young, but they've been there and done it as well as they can hope. A lot of this speaks more to our needs and demands and expectations. I gave up depending too much on PJs output, instead focusing on seeing them live and finding release and catharsis there. We spoke about this already I know, but having heard about ed reall struggling with the lyrics for ST and the follow on attitude in Backspacer, of 'if its troublesome, dump it' makes sense for him maybe, but I found alarming.
Maybe people In the fan base aren't aware of that happening, I know it's been discussed here certainly, but having seen that happen and hearig the results, that's a clear indicator to us that we should pull back our expectations and not place so much importance in what they have to say. I know I did.

It's just a band. That seems to get almost totally ignored nowadays.

Here's the thing, though, that I've realised very recently. I guess that 'If it's not good in 5 minutes, dump it' attitude wasn't just Ed being lazy and unable to care, as I've been thinking in the past year or three. I think it was more. I think it's because his head is in that space of a punk musician now. He's less ROCK GOD and much more Punk Iconoclast. Which is fine with me, in terms of attitude, but I just want him to make music that's worthy of that. And I don't think he has been. But MYM is promising. I guess there's a sense in which everything he's been saying has been coming from a different musician, in our minds. You're not a punk rock star, Ed, you're an impostor. But what if he is a punk rock star now, to the bone? What if that's how he sees himself, deeply? I mean, what if he just doesn't *do* it very well. We'll find out. Eric Clapton has certainly got the blues in his bones, or so he thinks. But to me he's just a rich white guy who gets driven around in limos and has a few good songs.

dimejinky99 wrote:They never would go backwards and when we have accused them of doing so, they haven't succeeded. (Amongst the waves discussion the other day, just as an example)

Bingo. I keep saying this and no one seems to listen. I don't view these songs as trying to step backwards and recreate anything. I view them as three minute pop songs in the vein of new aesthetic Pearl Jam, but with elements brought forward from what they did. I view the Backspacer songs, when they work (and most of them do to some extent) as distillations of PJ. An experiment to carry forward. I hope that the next album will be that experiment applied to a much more interesting album. Look at how much interest they pack into 3 minutes on MYM. Already more interesting and Ed seems to realise that to do a three minute punk song, he doesn't have to sing about trite stuff and sound like a bonehead.

Haha. Spot on with the Clapton bit:)

Yeah I agree in a way. I'm thinking this one will probably have a lot of punk leaning going on but really as a reaction or antidote to the fact that he personally has spent the last three years playing solo and playing quietly. I think PJ make the kind of music they want to hear, the music they're fans of, if that makes sense?
I'm ok with that, I just hope I can jump on board with it and like most of it.
If its still true, that ed gets to pick and choose what he wants to write for/sing on then really the whole thing lands on him and his tastes. I'd imagine the break we heard Mike talk about was based on the fact that ed didn't like what he was hearing so they went back to the drawing board. That brings up the democracy vs benevolent dictator discussion. I just don't know where pj are in that but it's definitely a factor for them. And we can already see how it's playing out in MYM as the first single. I know ed and Jeff like their punk and mike likes his metal, so perhaps they've found a sweet spot where they can all take part In decisions on output?
Again, it's up to us to get on board or not. I am so far. But like yourself, with some trepidation.

dimejinky99 wrote:Haha. Spot on with the Clapton bit:)

Yeah I agree in a way. I'm thinking this one will probably have a lot of punk leaning going on but really as a reaction or antidote to the fact that he personally has spent the last three years playing solo and playing quietly. I think PJ make the kind of music they want to hear, the music they're fans of, if that makes sense?
I'm ok with that, I just hope I can jump on board with it and like most of it.
If its still true, that ed gets to pick and choose what he wants to write for/sing on then really the whole thing lands on him and his tastes. I'd imagine the break we heard Mike talk about was based on the fact that ed didn't like what he was hearing so they went back to the drawing board. That brings up the democracy vs benevolent dictator discussion. I just don't know where pj are in that but it's definitely a factor for them. And we can already see how it's playing out in MYM as the first single. I know ed and Jeff like their punk and mike likes his metal, so perhaps they've found a sweet spot where they can all take part In decisions on output?
Again, it's up to us to get on board or not. I am so far. But like yourself, with some trepidation.

This, I hope, is one of the things they've perfected in the next album. S/T, where it sucked, did so because of just how democratic it was (it was, wasn't it? I've heard that). I like the fact Mike wrote the lyrics to a song but they were terrible. So Backspacer was a reaction to that, and an experimentation with a new way of working (as they talked about, and as I interpreted as laziness... I was probably wrong, I can see that now). And I hope we get some things honed down and perfected next time. If there's more experimenting, great, but let's hope it's interesting.

I'm still into this song.

darthvedder81 wrote:

harmless wrote:I have an old friend called Jo, used to be in a band with him, and he (more or less) gave up on the band at Yield. If he's heard anything since, he doesn't remember it. He heard this song and said 'Hmmm..... yeah, it's okay. Maybe there will be some stuff on this album that I'll like.'

If you gave up on the band at Yield I frankly don't know how it would be possible for you to come back...

Living proof right here.

Did anyone quit because of/after Yield?

I was under the impression that the record and entire period was Pj at the height of their powers and enjoying popularity not seen since Vs?

dimejinky99 wrote:Did anyone quit because of/after Yield?

I was under the impression that the record and entire period was Pj at the height of their powers and enjoying popularity not seen since Vs?

I don't get why these are mutually exclusive. Did anyone quite after Yield? Yes. Or just lost interest. 'Quit' is obviously shorthand.

A lot of my friends loved Yield but for whatever reason, didn't carry on buying or listening after that. It almost happened to me when I hated almost everything about Binaural on first listen. The only song I liked was Light Years. The fast songs were trying too hard to ape an old sound, I thought. I came to love Binaural several years later, but it's still not my favourite album. I get why so many of my friends found Binaural alienating and I also get why they found latter PJ boring, although I didn't.