McParadigm wrote:I'm going to nerd this up, and I apologize, but it happens to cross paths with some of my education-based cognition work and I find it interesting.
ERP markers for structural violations within music and language are almost indistinguishably similar. This has helped lead to the development of the theory that similar cognitive processes are involved in processing both music and language. Many of the areas of the brain that respond most intensely to music are also areas that respond in social communication settings, and are the areas that are communicative in nature rather than the ones that are receptive....in other words, we don't simply intake music; we interact with it. In a very literal sense, our brains converse with it. This may be why music can so easily affect us emotionally, why it can have a focusing effect on learners, why it has a recuperative effect on people with chronic pain, and why people shopping in an area where music is piped in tend to linger longer and subsequently buy more items: we get a very similar reward from listening to music that we do from conversing with a close personal friend. When we listen to music, on some level and among many other reactions, we feel as though we are somehow being social.
As an aside, I believe this can help explain everything from why people might "bond" with a particular artist over a lengthy time of positive exposure to why the introduction of mass exposure pop music led to such an explosion in groupie culture.
Other studies of how music and lyrics interact within the listener have shown that completely different emotional centers are stimulated by a "sad" piece of music if melancholic lyrics are included with it than if the piece is presented without lyrics, or with more positive phrasings being sung, and that people tend to judge music in very similar ways to how they judge people...including associating various intelligence markers with different pieces. Most interestingly, when we listen to a piece of music that is instrumental in nature, the language centers of our brains light up...and when asked to write random words on a piece of paper while listening to the same piece of music on multiple occasions, the same piece of music will tend to draw up the same or extremely similar words from the same person...which will be completely different words than other instrumental pieces bring up, and which will subsequently not show up with any remarkable frequency if no music is playing. This continues to happen even when descriptive words are disallowed or not included.
So, to summarize, our brains naturally associate music and language. It's unavoidable. It just happens. Hell, we even store the lyrics to a song in a different way than we do other textual or auditory language...they aren't placed separate from the music, in our memories. And, the words to a song affect our response even when we think that they aren't. If no lyrics exist, our brain will draw connections to words or phrases as a way of processing the emotion of the piece....much the same way it often uses remembered facial expressions when listening to recognized songs.
But outside of that basic reality, music enjoyment will always come down to the reality that people have different preferences and different priorities. It's perfectly reasonable for a person to place other things above lyrics, in terms of importance....and it's perfectly reasonable for a person to place lyrics as the most important thing, as well.
Interesting. Does this mean we respond differently to instrumental pieces, or does our brain just add words in for us?
I've just realised that this song suffers from the most annoying habit of Matt's: playing a ride cymbal all the way through the chorus when he should be thrashing away at cymbals / hi-hats. But the song is so good I don't care much.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
I think it was in the Mark Richards interview. He said that it wasn't about himself, because he didn't know his father so has nothing against him.
OK I looked it up....
He said, "I didn't even know my father, so it's certainly not autobiographical".
He went on to say, "he wasn't even around long enough for me to hate him like that. It's really based on, in a way it's based on evolution. In the evolution in this case is you were given a certain set of genes, that you were given by the previous generation. You know they talk about cloning humans, well that's what we are. It seems we are almost exactly a clone of these two people and it almost usually comes out just about equal and you get some fucked up genes, and hopefully some good ones and then it's just making decisions based on using your positive strengths and not succumbing to any of the dark, fucked up shit that might just be in your DNA, that might just make it more conducive to being an adulter, or being a criminal, or literally being insane. So, I think that's just a bit of a diatribe on having to deal with the cards that you were dealt in a strand of DNA."
This is what I originally posted:
This is cool lyrical song. I was wondering if this was a religious reference when I first heard. The Father being God. Still not sure.
If it's direct about Ed and his Dad, it makes more sense. If this is what it's about, it's obviously about his Dad's depression/mental illness and how Ed has it also or has had it in the past. In my opinion, this song is about regrets with lyrics he wrote in the past (State of Love and Trust, for example, or any song related to his poor mental health) and blaming them on his Father not being there or being an f'd up person. I think Ed's at a weird stage of life where he realizes his children will soon look at his past (songs like State of Love and Trust where he talks of taking himself out) with a slight embarrassment towards his mental state. This is Ed's way to say it's not his fault.... which seems just about normal for him. I do think the anger is legit here and not staged. I just think it's narcissistic in it's nature. Just about the norm for Ed.
Probably a mix of these two things served as the motivation. I'm quite sure he wasn't directing all of that towards his Dad. But, maybe he used Father as a metaphor for everyone's Dads and so on. In a sense, it probably is somewhat autobiographical and that brings in the other parts which I mentioned in the quote.
I don't get an autobiographical feel from this one at all.
Without knowing all the lyrics, the overall feeling I get from this one is that the narrator is essentially putting all the baggage from his life on his father. That's both genetic heritage (gene pool drowning me / from the moment I fell, I called on DNA) and also the emotional scar of being abandoned by this father as well (never had dear old Dad / left us so soon).
I suppose based on the MamaSon thing that Ten-era Eddie might have been presenting that song at face value but it seems like it's got a sarcastic bent to it now. In the recent interviews Ed made a point of talking about how, without a father, he had to figure out on his own some things about how to be a man, father, etc. But he has done so without becoming a psychopath, so he's in as good a position as anyone to say, "Make your own path in life and stop blaming you DNA/father/parents/etc."
Farmer John wrote:So Mike's playing a six-string bass on this? Cool! I can't hear it. But, cool!
Yeah neither can I I wonder if it's responsible for the chords in the chorus?
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Farmer John wrote:So Mike's playing a six-string bass on this? Cool! I can't hear it. But, cool!
Yeah neither can I I wonder if it's responsible for the chords in the chorus?
Yeah that could be. Cause didn't Stone say he was only playing two notes in the chorus? The bass is what's probably filling it out.
Yeah. Someone would need to tell us which notes are guitar and which are bass, but it does have a depth that suggests a lower octave than the typical guitar. My guess is that the reverb-laden high notes might be stone, and the other stuff might be bass.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
I think it was in the Mark Richards interview. He said that it wasn't about himself, because he didn't know his father so has nothing against him.
OK I looked it up....
He said, "I didn't even know my father, so it's certainly not autobiographical".
He went on to say, "he wasn't even around long enough for me to hate him like that. It's really based on, in a way it's based on evolution. In the evolution in this case is you were given a certain set of genes, that you were given by the previous generation. You know they talk about cloning humans, well that's what we are. It seems we are almost exactly a clone of these two people and it almost usually comes out just about equal and you get some fucked up genes, and hopefully some good ones and then it's just making decisions based on using your positive strengths and not succumbing to any of the dark, fucked up shit that might just be in your DNA, that might just make it more conducive to being an adulter, or being a criminal, or literally being insane. So, I think that's just a bit of a diatribe on having to deal with the cards that you were dealt in a strand of DNA."
This is what I originally posted:
This is cool lyrical song. I was wondering if this was a religious reference when I first heard. The Father being God. Still not sure.
If it's direct about Ed and his Dad, it makes more sense. If this is what it's about, it's obviously about his Dad's depression/mental illness and how Ed has it also or has had it in the past. In my opinion, this song is about regrets with lyrics he wrote in the past (State of Love and Trust, for example, or any song related to his poor mental health) and blaming them on his Father not being there or being an f'd up person. I think Ed's at a weird stage of life where he realizes his children will soon look at his past (songs like State of Love and Trust where he talks of taking himself out) with a slight embarrassment towards his mental state. This is Ed's way to say it's not his fault.... which seems just about normal for him. I do think the anger is legit here and not staged. I just think it's narcissistic in it's nature. Just about the norm for Ed.
Probably a mix of these two things served as the motivation. I'm quite sure he wasn't directing all of that towards his Dad. But, maybe he used Father as a metaphor for everyone's Dads and so on. In a sense, it probably is somewhat autobiographical and that brings in the other parts which I mentioned in the quote.
I don't get an autobiographical feel from this one at all.
Without knowing all the lyrics, the overall feeling I get from this one is that the narrator is essentially putting all the baggage from his life on his father. That's both genetic heritage (gene pool drowning me / from the moment I fell, I called on DNA) and also the emotional scar of being abandoned by this father as well (never had dear old Dad / left us so soon).
I suppose based on the MamaSon thing that Ten-era Eddie might have been presenting that song at face value but it seems like it's got a sarcastic bent to it now. In the recent interviews Ed made a point of talking about how, without a father, he had to figure out on his own some things about how to be a man, father, etc. But he has done so without becoming a psychopath, so he's in as good a position as anyone to say, "Make your own path in life and stop blaming you DNA/father/parents/etc."
I don't want this to come across as harsh towards Ed, cause it's not really meant to, but ...
...I wouldn't be surprised if Ed has some serious mental issues. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if he has some issues with depression "still" and, now that he has kids, is quite embarrassed by his public behavior when he was younger. He probably doesn't want his kids to follow in his footsteps. Maybe, just maybe, this is his attempt at a rationalization for it all.
I bet a lot of what Ed writes now is actually meant for his kids.
That bridge kinda ruins the song for me.. all the rest, verses and chorus, have a really nice groove (both instrumental and vocals) and suddenly from nowhere comes that bridge that makes me feel like I just landed in Hawaii or something.
OK, for all that I understand the clash of light/dark isn't working for some people, why does the bridge keep getting described as "Hawaiian / carnival / circus" music? I've seen these descriptions everywhere and found them weird, but also really quite specific. Can anyone explain? Are these just words for "light and happy" or is it more?
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
harmless wrote:OK, for all that I understand the clash of light/dark isn't working for some people, why does the bridge keep getting described as "Hawaiian / carnival / circus" music? I've seen these descriptions everywhere and found them weird, but also really quite specific. Can anyone explain? Are these just words for "light and happy" or is it more?
I can hear what people are hearing when they call it "island" music. I guess it's the steel guitar sound or whatever. But I really think it's just trying to be bright in contrast to the rest of the song.
In theory, I have no problem with that. Musically, the bridge is the one part of this song I haven't really made peace with yet, however.
harmless wrote:OK, for all that I understand the clash of light/dark isn't working for some people, why does the bridge keep getting described as "Hawaiian / carnival / circus" music? I've seen these descriptions everywhere and found them weird, but also really quite specific. Can anyone explain? Are these just words for "light and happy" or is it more?
It's more. It's very Caribbean or beachy. The reason is the one time clean guitar chord hits and the organ riff used there. Ed's singing at that point adds to it too.
McParadigm wrote:I'm going to nerd this up, and I apologize, but it happens to cross paths with some of my education-based cognition work and I find it interesting.
ERP markers for structural violations within music and language are almost indistinguishably similar. This has helped lead to the development of the theory that similar cognitive processes are involved in processing both music and language. Many of the areas of the brain that respond most intensely to music are also areas that respond in social communication settings, and are the areas that are communicative in nature rather than the ones that are receptive....in other words, we don't simply intake music; we interact with it. In a very literal sense, our brains converse with it. This may be why music can so easily affect us emotionally, why it can have a focusing effect on learners, why it has a recuperative effect on people with chronic pain, and why people shopping in an area where music is piped in tend to linger longer and subsequently buy more items: we get a very similar reward from listening to music that we do from conversing with a close personal friend. When we listen to music, on some level and among many other reactions, we feel as though we are somehow being social.
As an aside, I believe this can help explain everything from why people might "bond" with a particular artist over a lengthy time of positive exposure to why the introduction of mass exposure pop music led to such an explosion in groupie culture.
Other studies of how music and lyrics interact within the listener have shown that completely different emotional centers are stimulated by a "sad" piece of music if melancholic lyrics are included with it than if the piece is presented without lyrics, or with more positive phrasings being sung, and that people tend to judge music in very similar ways to how they judge people...including associating various intelligence markers with different pieces. Most interestingly, when we listen to a piece of music that is instrumental in nature, the language centers of our brains light up...and when asked to write random words on a piece of paper while listening to the same piece of music on multiple occasions, the same piece of music will tend to draw up the same or extremely similar words from the same person...which will be completely different words than other instrumental pieces bring up, and which will subsequently not show up with any remarkable frequency if no music is playing. This continues to happen even when descriptive words are disallowed or not included.
So, to summarize, our brains naturally associate music and language. It's unavoidable. It just happens. Hell, we even store the lyrics to a song in a different way than we do other textual or auditory language...they aren't placed separate from the music, in our memories. And, the words to a song affect our response even when we think that they aren't. If no lyrics exist, our brain will draw connections to words or phrases as a way of processing the emotion of the piece....much the same way it often uses remembered facial expressions when listening to recognized songs.
But outside of that basic reality, music enjoyment will always come down to the reality that people have different preferences and different priorities. It's perfectly reasonable for a person to place other things above lyrics, in terms of importance....and it's perfectly reasonable for a person to place lyrics as the most important thing, as well.
What are lyrics? Is that the stuff the singer says when he's singing with the tune? Should I be listening to that?
Guys, you know who else did rocking, minor verses and then uncharacteristically happy choruses? The Police. "Every Little Thing She Does is Magic" is a great example.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
I wonder if it's responsible for the chords in the chorus?
