Red Mosquito

swan wrote:Didn’t Ed sing the National Anthem for one of the ‘96 Finals games at Key Arena?

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I’ve never heard Steve Albini talk about early 90’s alternative rock without being embarrassed for him. He describes it like a guy who mostly learned about it in Hit Parade magazine.

I like the hell out of him. He’s just kind of a low information dad when it comes to an era he gets unavoidably (unfortunately) asked about a lot.

What is he talking about when he says Pearl Jam is a corporate creation? Is there truth/rumour about that or does he not know what he is talking about?

Mike wrote:What is he talking about when he says Pearl Jam is a corporate creation? Is there truth/rumour about that or does he not know what he is talking about?

McParadigm wrote:I’ve never heard Steve Albini talk about early 90’s alternative rock without being embarrassed for him. He describes it like a guy who mostly learned about it in Hit Parade magazine.

I haven't even heard the interview, but I can probably guess what he means. Albini is immersed in a way of making music which is largely independent of the major labels and entertainment industry in a broader sense. Nirvana came out of that scene too, they played local shows and recorded for local labels, toured the country in falling-to-pieces old vans, etc. Pearl Jam never did any of those things, they were signed to a major label from the get-go and were never part of that grassroots, independent world.

Birds in Hell wrote:I haven't even heard the interview, but I can probably guess what he means. Albini is immersed in a way of making music which is largely independent of the major labels and entertainment industry in a broader sense. Nirvana came out of that scene too, they played local shows and recorded for local labels, toured the country in falling-to-pieces old vans, etc. Pearl Jam never did any of those things, they were signed to a major label from the get-go and were never part of that grassroots, independent world.

"Pearl Jam was sort of...the corporate face of the era. You know, the band was assembled from constituent parts, and then was shopped as a product. It was very much an industry creation."

At the very least, that comment seems to be ignorant of Jeff & Stone's history.

McParadigm wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:I haven't even heard the interview, but I can probably guess what he means. Albini is immersed in a way of making music which is largely independent of the major labels and entertainment industry in a broader sense. Nirvana came out of that scene too, they played local shows and recorded for local labels, toured the country in falling-to-pieces old vans, etc. Pearl Jam never did any of those things, they were signed to a major label from the get-go and were never part of that grassroots, independent world.

"Pearl Jam was sort of...the corporate face of the era. You know, the band was assembled from constituent parts, and then was shopped as a product. It was very much an industry creation."

I don't think he's entirely off target.

When Jeff and Stone started the band, it was undeniably a commercially-minded endeavour in which they set out to find suitable band members to fill the ranks, including a ripping lead guitarist and charismatic lead singer. They were willingly working in tandem with that entertainment industry juggernaut from the outset.

That's not to say their success was "manufactured" - plenty of bands who tried the same thing faded into obscurity, Pearl Jam fortunately had enough talent to back up their ambitions - but it's a markedly different (not necessarily better, but different) approach than that taken by the sort of bands Albini has historically championed. Jeff and Stone shared a laser-focus on becoming successful, professional rock musicians.

Birds in Hell wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:I haven't even heard the interview, but I can probably guess what he means. Albini is immersed in a way of making music which is largely independent of the major labels and entertainment industry in a broader sense. Nirvana came out of that scene too, they played local shows and recorded for local labels, toured the country in falling-to-pieces old vans, etc. Pearl Jam never did any of those things, they were signed to a major label from the get-go and were never part of that grassroots, independent world.

"Pearl Jam was sort of...the corporate face of the era. You know, the band was assembled from constituent parts, and then was shopped as a product. It was very much an industry creation."

I don't think he's entirely off target.

When Jeff and Stone started the band, it was undeniably a commercially-minded endeavour in which they set out to find suitable band members to fill the ranks, including a ripping lead guitarist and charismatic lead singer. They were willingly working in tandem with that entertainment industry juggernaut from the outset.

That's not to say their success was "manufactured" - plenty of bands who tried the same thing faded into obscurity, Pearl Jam fortunately had enough talent to back up their ambitions - but it's a markedly different (not necessarily better, but different) approach than that taken by the sort of bands Albini has historically championed. Jeff and Stone shared a laser-focus on becoming successful, professional rock musicians.

But you're not at all describing an industry creation. You're describing Jeff & Stone having commercial ambitions.

I like how according to his view of what this band is he crafted the perfect temptation-as-prank, and it died with a flat-assed thud.

Rob wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:I haven't even heard the interview, but I can probably guess what he means. Albini is immersed in a way of making music which is largely independent of the major labels and entertainment industry in a broader sense. Nirvana came out of that scene too, they played local shows and recorded for local labels, toured the country in falling-to-pieces old vans, etc. Pearl Jam never did any of those things, they were signed to a major label from the get-go and were never part of that grassroots, independent world.

"Pearl Jam was sort of...the corporate face of the era. You know, the band was assembled from constituent parts, and then was shopped as a product. It was very much an industry creation."

I don't think he's entirely off target.

When Jeff and Stone started the band, it was undeniably a commercially-minded endeavour in which they set out to find suitable band members to fill the ranks, including a ripping lead guitarist and charismatic lead singer. They were willingly working in tandem with that entertainment industry juggernaut from the outset.

That's not to say their success was "manufactured" - plenty of bands who tried the same thing faded into obscurity, Pearl Jam fortunately had enough talent to back up their ambitions - but it's a markedly different (not necessarily better, but different) approach than that taken by the sort of bands Albini has historically championed. Jeff and Stone shared a laser-focus on becoming successful, professional rock musicians.

But you're not at all describing an industry creation. You're describing Jeff & Stone having commercial ambitions.

They weren't selling copies of Ten out of a cardboard box on a merch table, or out of the back of a van. They had the financial and promotional support of a major label from the outset which played an enormous part in the band's early success.

Just to be clear, none of the above is meant to suggest that I subscribe to Albini's viewpoint (at least not dogmatically), or that I think artistic merit has any correlation with an artist's commercial ambition (or lack thereof).

Birds in Hell wrote: They weren't selling copies of Ten out of a cardboard box on a merch table, or out of the back of a van. They had the financial and promotional support of a major label from the outset, which played an enormous part in the band's early success.

Sure, but I think being the founders of Green River & MLB matter here. They're not an industry creation. They wanted to be rock stars, and succeeded.

Just to be clear, none of the above is meant to suggest that I subscribe to Albini's viewpoint (at least not dogmatically), or that I think artistic merit has any correlation with an artist's commercial ambition (or lack thereof).

I know, man. You're a staple on this PJ message board. I assume you have a healthy respect for them.

Rob wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote: They weren't selling copies of Ten out of a cardboard box on a merch table, or out of the back of a van. They had the financial and promotional support of a major label from the outset, which played an enormous part in the band's early success.

Sure, but I think being the founders of Green River & MLB matter here. They're not an industry creation. They wanted to be rock stars, and succeeded.

I feel like I'm leaning too heavily into constructing an imaginary (if probably broadly accurate) Albini argument to further the discussion, but I think he'd view that being a "rock star" is inherently an industry-created phenomenon; you can't reach that level of fame and saturation without actively working in partnership with the entertainment industry. That's probably heightened in Pearl Jam's situation as they started right at that point, they didn't scale up to it following years of building an independent support base.*

* Yes, I know the background of Stone and Jeff in particular, but I think this argument treats Pearl Jam as a fresh start, a new entity.

Rob wrote:

Just to be clear, none of the above is meant to suggest that I subscribe to Albini's viewpoint (at least not dogmatically), or that I think artistic merit has any correlation with an artist's commercial ambition (or lack thereof).

I know, man. You're a staple on this PJ message board. I assume you have a healthy respect for them.

I absolutely do.

Birds in Hell wrote: I feel like I'm leaning too heavily into constructing an imaginary (if probably broadly accurate) Albini argument to further the discussion, but I think he'd view that being a "rock star" is inherently an industry-created phenomenon; you can't reach that level of fame and saturation without actively working in partnership with the entertainment industry. That's probably heightened in Pearl Jam's situation as they started right at that point, they didn't scale up to it following years of building an independent support base.*

I'll take the bolded as an invite to go further

Pearl Jam may technically be a new entity at the time, but certainly it owes its existence to the work done in the prior 6 years, no? I don't want to inflate Green River's influence, but they earned their place and created the foundation Pearl Jam sits upon. The industry did not create this. They capitalized on it.

being a "rock star" is inherently an industry-created phenomenon

I get the logic behind this, but it condemns almost everyone. I don't know Mr. Albini as well as you guys, but do I believe Kurt Cobain didn't want to be a famous rock star? No way. Why do the people who spend their life on music and gravitate toward the industry do so if not to make music for a living.