Red Mosquito

Will you let us know when you realize the version you watched was 3D and that's why it was hard to see?

Prediction: Stip watched a cam version BvS on his computer (with good headphones) after reading all the spoilers and then watched Cap 3 in Imax without looking at spoilers. He found Capt 3 more interesting.

stip wrote:

theplatypus wrote:Putting aside Stip's specific criticisms here for a second... guys, please don't watch cam versions of movies. Just don't do that. Have some respect for yourselves and for the art.

This was the only time I've ever done it. It does suck. I just wanted to see this in some capacity prior to civil war.

i know that i wouldn't have been able to follow Civil War's storyline without first seeing BvS

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

stip wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

stip wrote:I mean, describe Wonder Woman's personality? Who is she, that people found her character compelling?

Why would Lex Luthor have created Doomsday?

Martha?


These are CRITICAL elements of the story, and they all fail in powerful ways.

WW is certainly underdeveloped, as are all the shoehorned EU introductions. This is all fucking Marvel's fault.

I covered the other two issues in my analysis, I would say. They made perfect sense to me.

can you repost that?

http://www.filmcolossus.com/batman-v-su ... e/analysis

Nice piece. I quite like your read on the movie, and I suspect it was what Snyder was trying to do, though I don't think he gets there. I like the potential themes in the movie. I jet think they are usually way to clumsy in execution, especially at the character level. It's why I think this is more effective as a series of interconnected images rather than a story

It also doesn't really explain the doomsday creation. It's a god Luthor creates, but it's not one he can control or stop, and it's not a fitting response to his own insignificance (giving batman the tools he needs to defeat him is)


Is Luthor a nihilist? There is a narcissistic humanism to him, in a way.

Your point about supermans faith in us is critical to what Snyder wanted to do, but it is executed really poorly in the film, especially since it is constantly emphasizing his crisis of faith, and his final conversion feels unearned.

Interesting read on the bat shot in the opening. I took it as something a bit more messianic.

Mecca wrote:

stip wrote:

theplatypus wrote:Putting aside Stip's specific criticisms here for a second... guys, please don't watch cam versions of movies. Just don't do that. Have some respect for yourselves and for the art.

This was the only time I've ever done it. It does suck. I just wanted to see this in some capacity prior to civil war.

i know that i wouldn't have been able to follow Civil War's storyline without first seeing BvS

I just read so many comparisons.

bada wrote:Will you let us know when you realize the version you watched was 3D and that's why it was hard to see?

I figured that went without saying

Mecca, Stip already wrote his review of Civil War before seeing it but wanted to make sure that all the references to how it's superior to BvS checked out.

Honestly, what I was most interested in was the story, character, and themes (since that was what LV praised) and you can get that with a sub optimal viewing

Is Superman's faith less earned than a Chris Cornell scream or more?

stip wrote:It also doesn't really explain the doomsday creation. It's a god Luthor creates, but it's not one he can control or stop, and it's not a fitting response to his own insignificance (giving batman the tools he needs to defeat him is)

If I recall correctly, I believe Luthor addresses this through one line: "If man won't stop God, the Devil will do it," which says a lot about how delusional and unhinged his mindset has become, and goes back to the inverted painting (mythology). Remember, I don't take any of this literally (a real god, a real devil) - they are all expressions of man. Superman is mythological apotheosis, humanity fulfilling its noblest impulses, while Luthor is the opposite - humanity succumbing to its most frail and egocentric insecurities. Doomsday is a reification of what Luthor represents - the monster Batman stops himself from becoming.

It is telling that, while people are personally offended by the fact that I didn't like BVS and/or the sub optimal way I saw it, no one other than LV has much to say about any of the actual substantive issues I had with the film.


full disclosure, I saw Thor 2 for the first time on a plane and rank it towards the bottom of my marvel list . No doubt had that first viewing been in imax 3D the lack of chemistry between Thor and Jane, and the underdeveloped villian with a weak motivation would not have bothered me and it would be a current favorite

bada wrote:Is Superman's faith less earned than a Chris Cornell scream or more?

Depends on the scream, my friend

stip wrote:

bada wrote:Is Superman's faith less earned than a Chris Cornell scream or more?

Depends on the scream, my friend

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

stip wrote:It also doesn't really explain the doomsday creation. It's a god Luthor creates, but it's not one he can control or stop, and it's not a fitting response to his own insignificance (giving batman the tools he needs to defeat him is)

If I recall correctly, I believe Luthor addresses this through one line: "If man won't stop God, the Devil will do it," which says a lot about how delusional and unhinged his mindset has become, and goes back to the inverted painting (mythology). Remember, I don't take any of this literally (a real god, a real devil) - they are all expressions of man. Superman is mythological apotheosis, humanity fulfilling its noblest impulses, while Luthor is the opposite - humanity succumbing to its most frail and egocentric insecurities. Doomsday is a reification of what Luthor represents - the monster Batman stops himself from becoming.

Yeah, i follow that. I just can't make this leap. I mean, maybe he thinks that mixing his blood in with Zod gives him some ownership, but if Luthor is motivated by a desire to restore his own significance as a human being (as opposed to something less interesting) this seems like a poor way to do this.

I probably take this more literally than you do. Superman embodies the best in man, but that he is not of man (an actual God) is significant, and so thematically the doomsday decision doesn't fit as well as it could

I do like your read on the themes

stip wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

stip wrote:It also doesn't really explain the doomsday creation. It's a god Luthor creates, but it's not one he can control or stop, and it's not a fitting response to his own insignificance (giving batman the tools he needs to defeat him is)

If I recall correctly, I believe Luthor addresses this through one line: "If man won't stop God, the Devil will do it," which says a lot about how delusional and unhinged his mindset has become, and goes back to the inverted painting (mythology). Remember, I don't take any of this literally (a real god, a real devil) - they are all expressions of man. Superman is mythological apotheosis, humanity fulfilling its noblest impulses, while Luthor is the opposite - humanity succumbing to its most frail and egocentric insecurities. Doomsday is a reification of what Luthor represents - the monster Batman stops himself from becoming.

Yeah, i follow that. I just can't make this leap. I mean, maybe he thinks that mixing his blood in with Zod gives him some ownership, but if Luthor is motivated by a desire to restore his own significance as a human being (as opposed to something less interesting) this seems like a poor way to do this.

I probably take this more literally than you do. Superman embodies the best in man, but that he is not of man (an actual God) is significant, and so thematically the doomsday decision doesn't fit as well as it could

I do like your read on the themes

Yeah, you're definitely taking it more literally than I am. I don't think it matters at all if these things are actually humans or not in the plot of the movie (as everyone knows, I don't care about plot). Mythology is full monsters and demons and deities and creatures and all kinds of stuff that aren't technically people, yet still represent human themes. It's a storytelling technique as old as time.

i think my bottom paged thought is a bigger plothole than luthor controlling Dday

Mecca wrote:giving Doomsday a kryptonian origin means that he's coming back just like superman is, right?

stip wrote:It is telling that, while people are personally offended by the fact that I didn't like BVS and/or the sub optimal way I saw it, no one other than LV has much to say about any of the actual substantive issues I had with the film.


full disclosure, I saw Thor 2 for the first time on a plane and rank it towards the bottom of my marvel list . No doubt had that first viewing been in imax 3D the lack of chemistry between Thor and Jane, and the underdeveloped villian with a weak motivation would not have bothered me and it would be a current favorite

Luthor finds a lot more than just Doomsday at the Kryptonian ship. He finds a connection to Darkseid, to steppenwolf ( you can see that in scene that was cut). He realizes that we are not alone.

As for the ¨dreaming¨sequence, they might be building something pretty cool with that.. when Bruce sees The Flash he is hinting about Superman´s gone bad...maybe Injustice: god among us is what they will bring in those JL movies.

VinylGuy wrote:

stip wrote:It is telling that, while people are personally offended by the fact that I didn't like BVS and/or the sub optimal way I saw it, no one other than LV has much to say about any of the actual substantive issues I had with the film.


full disclosure, I saw Thor 2 for the first time on a plane and rank it towards the bottom of my marvel list . No doubt had that first viewing been in imax 3D the lack of chemistry between Thor and Jane, and the underdeveloped villian with a weak motivation would not have bothered me and it would be a current favorite

Luthor finds a lot more than just Doomsday at the Kryptonian ship. He finds a connection to Darkseid, to steppenwolf ( you can see that in scene that was cut). He realizes that we are not alone.

As for the ¨dreaming¨sequence, they might be building something pretty cool with that.. when Bruce sees The Flash he is hinting about Superman´s gone bad...maybe Injustice: god among us is what they will bring in those JL movies.

I don't think this is a fair way to defend or criticize the movie. This is a really off-putting outgrowth of nerd culture: citing lore from other media as if it somehow justifies or invalidates something in the movie. The only things we should be evaluating here are things that are actually in the film itself.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:

stip wrote:It is telling that, while people are personally offended by the fact that I didn't like BVS and/or the sub optimal way I saw it, no one other than LV has much to say about any of the actual substantive issues I had with the film.


full disclosure, I saw Thor 2 for the first time on a plane and rank it towards the bottom of my marvel list . No doubt had that first viewing been in imax 3D the lack of chemistry between Thor and Jane, and the underdeveloped villian with a weak motivation would not have bothered me and it would be a current favorite

Luthor finds a lot more than just Doomsday at the Kryptonian ship. He finds a connection to Darkseid, to steppenwolf ( you can see that in scene that was cut). He realizes that we are not alone.

As for the ¨dreaming¨sequence, they might be building something pretty cool with that.. when Bruce sees The Flash he is hinting about Superman´s gone bad...maybe Injustice: god among us is what they will bring in those JL movies.

I don't think this is a fair way to defend or criticize the movie. This is a really off-putting outgrowth of nerd culture: citing lore from other media as if it somehow justifies or invalidates something in the movie. The only things we should be evaluating here are things that are actually in the film itself.

I agree with that, but eveything i said is in the movie...maybe not the steppenwolf scene, but it will be in the directors cut.

VinylGuy wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:

stip wrote:It is telling that, while people are personally offended by the fact that I didn't like BVS and/or the sub optimal way I saw it, no one other than LV has much to say about any of the actual substantive issues I had with the film.


full disclosure, I saw Thor 2 for the first time on a plane and rank it towards the bottom of my marvel list . No doubt had that first viewing been in imax 3D the lack of chemistry between Thor and Jane, and the underdeveloped villian with a weak motivation would not have bothered me and it would be a current favorite

Luthor finds a lot more than just Doomsday at the Kryptonian ship. He finds a connection to Darkseid, to steppenwolf ( you can see that in scene that was cut). He realizes that we are not alone.

As for the ¨dreaming¨sequence, they might be building something pretty cool with that.. when Bruce sees The Flash he is hinting about Superman´s gone bad...maybe Injustice: god among us is what they will bring in those JL movies.

I don't think this is a fair way to defend or criticize the movie. This is a really off-putting outgrowth of nerd culture: citing lore from other media as if it somehow justifies or invalidates something in the movie. The only things we should be evaluating here are things that are actually in the film itself.

I agree with that, but eveything i said is in the movie...maybe not the steppenwolf scene, but it will be in the directors cut.

I am pretty positive they never say anything about Darkseid in the movie. In fact, I have no idea who or what Darkseid is.