Red Mosquito

i think the movie LV sees would have been more fully and effectively realized if the franchise imperative wasnt necessary. as scenes they are some of the most poorly realized, and the existence of WW undermines the more interesting themes LV points out.

the other major issue is that superman as presented does a fairly poor job of embodying what LV (and maybe snyder) want him to embody. he is nowhere close to the paragon of our better nature the story wants him to be. LVs themes are there, but they really require either a more classic presentation of the hero (who should have reached that destination at the end if MoS) or have him be an ideal in the film itself , rather than a character discovering who he is. telling that story concurrently with the luthor/batman struggle muddles everything, and snyder is not dextrous enough to do both at the same time

I hope WB does take JL away from Snyder so he can go back to making smaller tighter movies. He's better at them, and big ridiculous blockbusters like this work against his strengths.

THough to be fair, I'm not sure anyone could reign in all this nonsense.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:

stip wrote:It is telling that, while people are personally offended by the fact that I didn't like BVS and/or the sub optimal way I saw it, no one other than LV has much to say about any of the actual substantive issues I had with the film.


full disclosure, I saw Thor 2 for the first time on a plane and rank it towards the bottom of my marvel list . No doubt had that first viewing been in imax 3D the lack of chemistry between Thor and Jane, and the underdeveloped villian with a weak motivation would not have bothered me and it would be a current favorite

Luthor finds a lot more than just Doomsday at the Kryptonian ship. He finds a connection to Darkseid, to steppenwolf ( you can see that in scene that was cut). He realizes that we are not alone.

As for the ¨dreaming¨sequence, they might be building something pretty cool with that.. when Bruce sees The Flash he is hinting about Superman´s gone bad...maybe Injustice: god among us is what they will bring in those JL movies.

I don't think this is a fair way to defend or criticize the movie. This is a really off-putting outgrowth of nerd culture: citing lore from other media as if it somehow justifies or invalidates something in the movie. The only things we should be evaluating here are things that are actually in the film itself.

I agree with that, but eveything i said is in the movie...maybe not the steppenwolf scene, but it will be in the directors cut.

I am pretty positive they never say anything about Darkseid in the movie. In fact, I have no idea who or what Darkseid is.

Its full of references to him.

VinylGuy wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:

stip wrote:It is telling that, while people are personally offended by the fact that I didn't like BVS and/or the sub optimal way I saw it, no one other than LV has much to say about any of the actual substantive issues I had with the film.


full disclosure, I saw Thor 2 for the first time on a plane and rank it towards the bottom of my marvel list . No doubt had that first viewing been in imax 3D the lack of chemistry between Thor and Jane, and the underdeveloped villian with a weak motivation would not have bothered me and it would be a current favorite

Luthor finds a lot more than just Doomsday at the Kryptonian ship. He finds a connection to Darkseid, to steppenwolf ( you can see that in scene that was cut). He realizes that we are not alone.

As for the ¨dreaming¨sequence, they might be building something pretty cool with that.. when Bruce sees The Flash he is hinting about Superman´s gone bad...maybe Injustice: god among us is what they will bring in those JL movies.

I don't think this is a fair way to defend or criticize the movie. This is a really off-putting outgrowth of nerd culture: citing lore from other media as if it somehow justifies or invalidates something in the movie. The only things we should be evaluating here are things that are actually in the film itself.

I agree with that, but eveything i said is in the movie...maybe not the steppenwolf scene, but it will be in the directors cut.

I am pretty positive they never say anything about Darkseid in the movie. In fact, I have no idea who or what Darkseid is.

Its full of references to him.

But they don't ever actually say "Darkseid," yeah? Those references would seem to be based on comic book knowledge.

a succesful movie should require no outside knowledge to understand major plot points or character motivations

references to previous movies is different. its reasonable to expect the audience to know zod, etc

More importantly a movie shouldn't lose any of its aesthetic appeal or visual quality when recored by a phone and then played on a computer screen with good headphones.

That was really Snyder's biggest fail.

stip wrote:a succesful movie should require no outside knowledge to understand major plot points or character motivations

I dont agree with this.
If the references are there and they dont mess with the story, its cool to have hints about whats to come...if you love the movie you will eventually go to the source material and come back to the movie to find new layers.

oh sure, to enhance the story and reward dedication or careful viewings, but information needed for basic plot or character motivations. i

bada wrote:That was really Snyder's biggest fail.

that and all the anti-semetism

stip wrote:

bada wrote:That was really Snyder's biggest fail.

that and all the anti-semetism

That's not fair. The WB insisted on that so it would sell in Europe.

Mecca wrote:i think my bottom paged thought is a bigger plothole than luthor controlling Dday

Mecca wrote:giving Doomsday a kryptonian origin means that he's coming back just like superman is, right?

SOMEBODY PAT ME ON THE FUCKING BACK FOR THIS

Let's continue to ignore Mecca.

i can hear him, but only because of the headphones

Mecca wrote:

Mecca wrote:i think my bottom paged thought is a bigger plothole than luthor controlling Dday

Mecca wrote:giving Doomsday a kryptonian origin means that he's coming back just like superman is, right?

SOMEBODY PAT ME ON THE FUCKING BACK FOR THIS

No, Doomsday is not a Kyptonian just like Superman, he's something else, a monster made from Zod's dead body, some of Luthor's blood, and a bunch of crazy Kryptonian science.

I really wanna buy and watch this movie several more times to then come here and argue about it a bunch. This movie excels for me in many ways, but even if I agreed with all the criticisms I think I'd still really like it due to its uniqueness/weirdness/strangeness in a genre that is becoming just a little bit stale.

I agree with most of stip's criticism, but I still like the movie.