Red Mosquito

Strat wrote:So, Montage of Heck is pretty great but it really made me dislike Kurt even more. Seems like he never grew out of his angry 12 year old self and always pretty much acted like a child.

this describes every rock star ever

Strat wrote:So, Montage of Heck is pretty great but it really made me dislike Kurt even more. Seems like he never grew out of his angry 12 year old self and always pretty much acted like a child.

the junky who killed himself while his daughter was a baby? you dislike that guy? no way!

i didnt see the whole thing, but i thought it was refreshing that it wasnt some kinda 'rock messiah' thing. i also thought the way it ended was incredible. they completely blamed courtney for his suicide, which i found awesome.

i'm gonna try to watch it from beginning to end tonight. pretty heavy stuff though, i really enjoyed what i saw.

warehouse wrote:

Strat wrote:So, Montage of Heck is pretty great but it really made me dislike Kurt even more. Seems like he never grew out of his angry 12 year old self and always pretty much acted like a child.

the junky who killed himself while his daughter was a baby? you dislike that guy? no way!

i didnt see the whole thing, but i thought it was refreshing that it wasnt some kinda 'rock messiah' thing. i also thought the way it ended was incredible. they completely blamed courtney for his suicide, which i found awesome.

i'm gonna try to watch it from beginning to end tonight. pretty heavy stuff though, i really enjoyed what i saw.

I have to finish the ending.

And, i mean, there really is nothing likable about the guy. Running his mouth all the time. Just a sad character who wrote some great music.

matt reeder wrote:

Iholdthepain wrote:

matt reeder wrote:

Iholdthepain wrote:

matt reeder wrote:

Iholdthepain wrote:

Strat wrote:Whatever...aneurysm is their best song anyway.

Agreed... and it's one of the few that are way better live...

I would argue that, other than "Swap Meet" and "Heart-Shaped Box", they're all better live.

Aye, but would you say they're way better live?

Yes. I've listened to every Nirvana show out there (I got my start in the online Nirvana bootleg world) and in general I prefer live Nirvana to studio Nirvana.

Another song that was better in the studio: "Even In His Youth".

What would you say is their best live song... and best live boot? My favorite video boot is the infamous Trees show for obvious reasons, but now that there are officially released shows, I don't ever visit the old audio boots. I do have a lot on CD-R, but haven't listened to them in a while.

To me it's "Drain You", which is a monster live. There aren't any bad versions, and it's one of the few songs that continued to be great all the way to the very end.

Favorite shows / boots:
* 5/06/1987 - KAOS-FM, Olympia, WA
* 3/19/1988 - Tacoma, WA
* 10/30/1988 - Olympia, WA
* 6/23/1989 - Westwood, CA
* 10/08/1989 - Omaha, NE
* 11/05/1989 - Amsterdam, The Netherlands
* 11/22/1989 - Vienna, Austria
* 5/13/1990 - Omaha, NE
* 10/11/1990 - Olympia, WA
* 10/27/1990 - Norwich, UK
* 11/25/1990 - Seattle, WA
* 3/08/1991 - Vancouver, BC
* 4/17/1991 - Seattle, WA
* 8/27/1991 - Bremen, Germany
* 9/26/1991 - New Haven, CT
* 10/11/1991 - Detroit, MI
* 10/12/1991 - Chicago, IL
* 10/29/1991 - Portland, OR
* 11/06/1991 - Wolverhampton, UK
* 11/23/1991 - Ghent, Belgium
* 12/07/1991 - Rennes, France
* 1/10/1992 - MTV Studios, New York, NY
* 2/06/1992 - Sydney, Australia
* 2/07/1992 - Sydney, Australia
* 6/30/1992 - Stockholm, Sweden
* 9/10/1992 - Portland, OR
* 9/11/1992 - Seattle, WA
* 10/30/1992 - Buenos Aires, Argentina
* 4/09/1993 - San Francisco, CA
* 10/23/1993 - Chicago, IL
* 10/31/1993 - Akron, OH
* 11/27/1993 - Miami, FL
* 12/30/1993 - Inglewood, CA
* 12/31/1993 - Oakland, CA
* 1/08/1994 - Seattle, WA
* 2/14/1994 - Paris, France
* 2/16/1994 - Rennes, France

I'm sure others have some suggestions as well. I've worn out my bootlegs of those shows over the years and I'm glad to have them all in digital format now.

I have the 89 Omaha show but not the 1990 one. My bro was at the 1989 show. Lucky bastard.

warehouse wrote:

Strat wrote:So, Montage of Heck is pretty great but it really made me dislike Kurt even more. Seems like he never grew out of his angry 12 year old self and always pretty much acted like a child.

the junky who killed himself while his daughter was a baby? you dislike that guy? no way!

i didnt see the whole thing, but i thought it was refreshing that it wasnt some kinda 'rock messiah' thing. i also thought the way it ended was incredible. they completely blamed courtney for his suicide, which i found awesome.

i'm gonna try to watch it from beginning to end tonight. pretty heavy stuff though, i really enjoyed what i saw.

Uh, did we watch the same thing? I missed that part. Can you elaborate?

Nonetheless, I agree that is was refreshing in the sense it wasn't like so many other rock docs; it was basically the antithesis of PJ20.

That's not a bash on PJ, I like the way they handled the 90's by pulling back and releasing albums like Vitalogy, No Code and Yield. But...PJ20 was a bit too sappy for my taste.

darth_vedder wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Strat wrote:So, Montage of Heck is pretty great but it really made me dislike Kurt even more. Seems like he never grew out of his angry 12 year old self and always pretty much acted like a child.

the junky who killed himself while his daughter was a baby? you dislike that guy? no way!

i didnt see the whole thing, but i thought it was refreshing that it wasnt some kinda 'rock messiah' thing. i also thought the way it ended was incredible. they completely blamed courtney for his suicide, which i found awesome.

i'm gonna try to watch it from beginning to end tonight. pretty heavy stuff though, i really enjoyed what i saw.

Uh, did we watch the same thing? I missed that part. Can you elaborate?

Nonetheless, I agree that is was refreshing in the sense it wasn't like so many other rock docs; it was basically the antithesis of PJ20.

That's not a bash on PJ, I like the way they handled the 90's by pulling back and releasing albums like Vitalogy, No Code and Yield. But...PJ20 was a bit too sappy for my taste.

sure. she's the last person interviewed, and the last thing she talks about was how kurt cobain tried to kill himself in rome b/c he found out courtney wanted to cheat on him. this is followed by nirvana performing 'where did you sleep last night' on mtv unplugged, and the movie ends stating that kurt cobain killed himself a month after he OD'd in rome. maybe thats not what they were going for, considering their daughter helped put the film together, but thats what i got out of it. granted, i hate courtney love so that may shade my judgement.

Is Montage available to purchase anywhere? Like amazon or iTunes? I can't find it anywhere to buy.

Strat wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Strat wrote:So, Montage of Heck is pretty great but it really made me dislike Kurt even more. Seems like he never grew out of his angry 12 year old self and always pretty much acted like a child.

the junky who killed himself while his daughter was a baby? you dislike that guy? no way!

i didnt see the whole thing, but i thought it was refreshing that it wasnt some kinda 'rock messiah' thing. i also thought the way it ended was incredible. they completely blamed courtney for his suicide, which i found awesome.

i'm gonna try to watch it from beginning to end tonight. pretty heavy stuff though, i really enjoyed what i saw.

I have to finish the ending.

And, i mean, there really is nothing likable about the guy. Running his mouth all the time. Just a sad character who wrote some great music.

i love his music. i'm sure if we looked closely at our favorite musicians, especially those w/ drug problems, we'll find things we dont like about them. i just find it hard to feel sorry for the guy at all. people act as if he was some kind of victim b/c he was famous. at the end of the day he was a junkie who killed himself. if fame was that big of a problem, then he should have retired. or released nirvana's "no code". thats what was great about this documentary. it just laid everything out there and didnt try to sugar coat stuff...they showed him nodding off from dope with his kid in his lap.

is there anyway we can all call kurt cobain "retard fucker" here from now on? or is that offensive?

warehouse wrote:

Strat wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Strat wrote:So, Montage of Heck is pretty great but it really made me dislike Kurt even more. Seems like he never grew out of his angry 12 year old self and always pretty much acted like a child.

the junky who killed himself while his daughter was a baby? you dislike that guy? no way!

i didnt see the whole thing, but i thought it was refreshing that it wasnt some kinda 'rock messiah' thing. i also thought the way it ended was incredible. they completely blamed courtney for his suicide, which i found awesome.

i'm gonna try to watch it from beginning to end tonight. pretty heavy stuff though, i really enjoyed what i saw.

I have to finish the ending.

And, i mean, there really is nothing likable about the guy. Running his mouth all the time. Just a sad character who wrote some great music.

i love his music. i'm sure if we looked closely at our favorite musicians, especially those w/ drug problems, we'll find things we dont like about them. i just find it hard to feel sorry for the guy at all. people act as if he was some kind of victim b/c he was famous. at the end of the day he was a junkie who killed himself. if fame was that big of a problem, then he should have retired. or released nirvana's "no code". thats what was great about this documentary. it just laid everything out there and didnt try to sugar coat stuff...they showed him nodding off from dope with his kid in his lap.

is there anyway we can all call kurt cobain "retard fucker" here from now on? or is that offensive?

Lets not do that.

I heard that lullaby version of All Apologies in the beginning and was like

warehouse wrote:is there anyway we can all call kurt cobain "retard fucker" here from now on? or is that offensive?

I love Nirvana's music but Cobain seemed like a real tool. Most people talked about how moody he was, having to walk on eggshells around him. Regular guy one minute, sitting in the corner brooding the next, screaming at you the next. What fun! He was constantly whining to the press about fellow rock stars like Axl Rose and Vedder. In reality he had a lot in common with both of those guys. Kurt was basically the cool kid's Axl (he'll snap at the DROP of a hat, dude!) and he was just as ambitious and fame-seeking as Vedder (and wrote even poppier songs than PJ). Cobain didn't even like Dave Grohl, who by pretty much all accounts is an easygoing, regular guy. Have you ever heard this answering machine message Kurt made about the Lynn Hirshberg article in Vanity Fair?



Yeah, sounds like a real peach. And his beef there was that she wrote that he and Courtney were heroin addicts with a baby, which turned out to be, um, 100% true. Child Protective Services SHOULD have stepped in like they did. Unfortunately, when you've got millions of dollars and teams of lawyers, you can get away with shooting heroin while taking care of an infant. I've said before that as a father, there is absolutely no way I could even fathom killing myself. I don't care how awful fame and millions of dollars were, he was a weak, junkie failure who had a kid and then ruined her life. What a hero! Anyway, Cobain's whole sensitive, tortured genius shtick sounded pretty cool to me when I was 19, but today he just strikes me as a high maintenance pain in the ass.

Great tunes, though. And if liking musicians as people was my criteria for enjoying music, I'd be listening to a very small amount of incredibly shitty music.

PryTo wrote:And if liking musicians as people was my criteria for enjoying music, I'd be listening to a very small amount of incredibly shitty music.

Agreed with everything, particularly this.

I guess I should probably see this doc.

My general feeling is that most people, most healthy people who aren't living in a cloud of depression and mental illness, can't fathom ever killing themselves. Cobain might be an asshole for a hundred different reasons but I find it difficult to call people weak failures for their actions when they're facing a darkness I've never known.

Mecca wrote:I heard that lullaby version of All Apologies in the beginning and was like

Yea that was beautiful. The instrumentals were great.

Jorge's got this right. It's not fair to try and understand the context of his actions without having an idea of how debilitating his depression was. Sure there are 100's of accounts of him being a whiny asshole, but come on, what mid-20s year old person ISN'T a whiny asshole?? Compound that on top of being a guy that probably had some undiagnosed mental issues and needed a shit ton of therapy for his past (and at the time, his present). Depression is a real, clinical disease. It gets a bad rap because we're taught to believe that, HEY!, you can just pop a pill and fix it!

I'm a fairly normal, functioning dude in society, and even I – every so often – think, "Man, fuck this. It'd be so much easier if I just didn't even have to deal with this anymore". Then I realize how silly that is when I think about my wife and family and the love in my life. Maybe this guy just didn't have that... completely fathomable. Or if he did, he was way too clouded and paranoid (both psychologically and drug-induced) to have any grasp on that reality. From the ways he talked about his daughter when he was lucid or in a moment of clarity, you have an idea of the type of person he could be, and maybe would have turned into. But the disease he struggled with just shrouded that person in a darkness I'll never understand.

I don't want to open some weird suicide/depression discussion at all. It's just a counterpoint to the discussion.

Spot on, 'snatch.

Kaius wrote:Spot on, 'snatch.

+1. I wrote a post about this last night and deleted it, but bodysnatcher said it better than I did. Depression is a bitch, and Kurt was both depressed and likely suffering from some other undiagnosed mental illness, as well as a debilitating drug addiction. Oh, and he married Courtney Love.

I need to see this, but I haven't had a chance yet.

I'm only half way through but I'm enjoying it. The music is really good. I tend to listen to my favorite 90's bands pretty sparingly now and sometimes after a year or two I realize I forgot how good they were. I don't feel like I learning anything I didn't already read back in '93 or '94 when I read the Come As You Are Book. I don't know how that bio is regarded all these years latter but it seemed to be a pretty honest, unsentimental look at Kurt. Maybe cause it was written before he died so the St Cobain crap wasn't there yet. I guess I've always seen him as deeply flawed so no illusions are being shattered for me with this doc. I think my first reaction when someone kills themselves is they are idiots but then realize my life isn't their life so what the fuck do I know.

Mecca wrote:I heard that lullaby version of All Apologies in the beginning and was like

I loved it!