Black Panther (2018)

[jwfocker]

It was a fun film, and it had a bit more to it than your standard hollow marvel movie but lets not get carried away here.

[stip]

you understand those are jokes right?

yes. you understand why that doesnt matter?

No. There are obvious jokes. It does matter that they are posted there just to be jokey about it, and of course we dont think and mean whatever those post say.

it is still cutting down and being dismissive of a culturally and socially empowering moment of representation of a historically (and currently) marginalized group. that it is under the guise of a ‘joke’ doesnt matter. thats better than the ‘but i have black friends’ defense, but its on that continuium. Nor have the people making the jokes established the awareness cache on this board for the ‘jokes’ to be actual jokes rather then a manifestation of privelage

This kind of genuflecting, exalted tone around this MARVEL SUPERHERO MOVIE is exactly what I’m talking about. You’re telling me this movie is such a sacred cultural touchstone that even making jokes about it is offensive? Come back to earth.

I'm saying that a bunch of white guys on a pearl jam message board are not the people to decide whether or not it is. That's up to the people who are seeing themselves represented in this way for the first time. They feel it is, and I think we should be respectful of that.

[stip]

you understand those are jokes right?

yes. you understand why that doesnt matter?

No. There are obvious jokes. It does matter that they are posted there just to be jokey about it, and of course we dont think and mean whatever those post say.

it is still cutting down and being dismissive of a culturally and socially empowering moment of representation of a historically (and currently) marginalized group. that it is under the guise of a ‘joke’ doesnt matter. thats better than the ‘but i have black friends’ defense, but its on that continuium. Nor have the people making the jokes established the awareness cache on this board for the ‘jokes’ to be actual jokes rather then a manifestation of privelage

This kind of genuflecting, exalted tone around this MARVEL SUPERHERO MOVIE is exactly what I’m talking about. You’re telling me this movie is such a scared cultural touchstone that even making jokes about it is offensive? Come back to earth.

Stip's always been big on things being "earned". He'll let you know when you've earned the right to jokes. Until then you better check your privilege.

Exactly. I'll be PMing notifications to each poster as they reach that point. When enough people hit that threshold DcT will reappear in this thread.

[stip]

This is actually some ingenious marketing strategy. If you load up your corporate junk with concerted effort to appear racially empowering, it all but makes you invulnerable to criticism, and people think even less about shoveling their cash toward your product. I guess it makes sense that this is the only way we're truly going to make progress in America - united by artless commercialism.

i wanted to come back to this today now that im back home. There are no ideas in Black Panther that are themselves revolutionary (in that theyre new). This is not a vanguard film. But the fact that a consensus orgainization like Disney - the embodiment of mainstream sensibilities - has put this out (a movie about black cultural and social empowerment, which is what the themes boil down to), and that it has been so well received critically and with general audiences, is itself a pretty amazing thing and does speak to progress and a cultural relevance at this moment in history.

I know, right? Pretty soon white kids will be wearing the jerseys of black athletes.

If people were making the same dismissive jokes about Jackie Robinson in the 1950s I'd be responding the same way. This is a new milestone, but it isn't the first ever.

[bada]

I think you're probably overreaching Stip but it is great that a criminally underrepresented segment of society is finally getting a superhero that looks like them and its resonating. Similar to Wonder Woman which I thought was fine but meant a lot to people. I'm looking forward to seeing it but if I don't get into the showing I want because its sold out I'll probably have to vote for Trump next time.

[VinylGuy]

you understand those are jokes right?

yes. you understand why that doesnt matter?

No. There are obvious jokes. It does matter that they are posted there just to be jokey about it, and of course we dont think and mean whatever those post say.

it is still cutting down and being dismissive of a culturally and socially empowering moment of representation of a historically (and currently) marginalized group. that it is under the guise of a ‘joke’ doesnt matter. thats better than the ‘but i have black friends’ defense, but its on that continuium. Nor have the people making the jokes established the awareness cache on this board for the ‘jokes’ to be actual jokes rather then a manifestation of privelage

Privilege? Man, dont even get there. I live in South America.

Besides that, you are missing the point here...we can make jokes and you are entitled to disagree with them, but i dont think they were offensive. I they bother you im sorry for that of course, but to say who is allowed to joke or have an opinion is dangerous.

[Bi_3]

This is actually some ingenious marketing strategy. If you load up your corporate junk with concerted effort to appear racially empowering, it all but makes you invulnerable to criticism, and people think even less about shoveling their cash toward your product. I guess it makes sense that this is the only way we're truly going to make progress in America - united by artless commercialism.

i wanted to come back to this today now that im back home. There are no ideas in Black Panther that are themselves revolutionary (in that theyre new). This is not a vanguard film. But the fact that a consensus orgainization like Disney - the embodiment of mainstream sensibilities - has put this out (a movie about black cultural and social empowerment, which is what the themes boil down to), and that it has been so well received critically and with general audiences, is itself a pretty amazing thing and does speak to progress and a cultural relevance at this moment in history.

I know, right? Pretty soon white kids will be wearing the jerseys of black athletes.

If people were making the same dismissive jokes about Jackie Robinson in the 1950s I'd be responding the same way. This is a new milestone, but it isn't the first ever.

I get that different things mean different things to different people and that the idea of seeing people who look like you depicted as champions in a mainstream production is powerful in ways I can't understand. But if you are equating the social impact of a mass-market superhero movie's boxoffice success with the wall-smashing bravery of an actual, real life young black man at the height of modern systemic racism in this country, then we are simply too far apart on this one.

[Jorge]

I also live in South America and am not privileged in any way!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm having maid tryouts

[LoathedVermin72]

You’re comparing Black Panther to Jackie fucking Robinson? Jesus Christ. This is lunacy.

[VinylGuy]

Im more poor than those black folks Stip.

[Monkey_Driven]

Your comparing Black Panther to Jackie fucking Robinson? Jesus Christ. This is lunacy.

Clearly he's omitting Shaq's unforgettable performance as Steel.

[bada]

I also live in South America and am not privileged in any way!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm having maid tryouts

I had my first RM dream the other night about you Jorge. You really needed my advice. You started dating a new girl and you wanted to take her to one of your parents vacation homes (this one was in Jamaica) and you said you hadn't discussed money with her yet and you were concerned that you parents employed a chef that only prepared raw food and you wondered if you should ask her to go halves on an additional chef that cooked. I offered my services as chef as long as you were fine with just mac n cheese which I thought was funny but you had no time for my foolishness.

[bada]

Im more poor than those black folks Stip.

....but you're rich in love VG.

[VinylGuy]

Im more poor than those black folks Stip.

....but you're rich in love VG.

I fi told you my last name you wouldnt belive it.

[Jorge]

I also live in South America and am not privileged in any way!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm having maid tryouts

I had my first RM dream the other night about you Jorge. You really needed my advice. You started dating a new girl and you wanted to take her to one of your parents vacation homes (this one was in Jamaica) and you said you hadn't discussed money with her yet and you were concerned that you parents employed a chef that only prepared raw food and you wondered if you should ask her to go halves on an additional chef that cooked. I offered my services as chef as long as you were fine with just mac n cheese which I thought was funny but you had no time for my foolishness.

[wease]

I also live in South America and am not privileged in any way!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm having maid tryouts

Are you using a casting couch?

[stip]

It was a fun film, and it had a bit more to it than your standard hollow marvel movie but lets not get carried away here.

I hinted at this earlier, but since I'm sitting at an actual computer instead of my phone I'll go into this a bit more.

There are more ideas in this film than in your typical action movie (Marvel or otherwise), and I think it goes deeper than Civil War or Ultron or Winter Solider (the previous movies that were united by 'themes') but this movie isn't important or significant because of its ideas (though they are a part of the overall package). The themes are on point, but they've been explored in vastly more sophisticated ways in countless other movies, books, music, and other forms of art.

What is significant about Black Panther, culturally, is what was significant about Wonder Woman, culturally (although I think Black Panther is the better movie and the culturally significant themes are more of a fundamental part of the story than they were in Wonder Woman). What matters about both is the representation of a marginalized group in an art form where they have historically been excluded. It is very difficult to overstate how important that is to groups not used to seeing themselves on screen as main characters, as heroes. A population told to just look at the white male heroes and imagine that this is you no longer have to do that, and that matters a great deal.

There were a few comments in this thread about the trailers and how 'black' they felt and how some people found it hard to connect with that (I'm paraphrasing, but that was at the heart of the comments). And that may be true. Now imagine if that feeling of mild alienation is how you had to feel watching just about every mainstream piece of popular filmmaking. It is amplified even further when you think about the characters who are aspirational - the heroes that kids pretend to be growing up. Minority characters and female characters have almost always been supporting players in a white male story. That is why seeing Rey and Finn (especially Rey) in Star Wars was so important. it's why that joke in Stranger Things Season 2 (about the black kid not wanting to have to be Winston and wanting to be Venkmen) is on point. It is why Wonder Woman, despite being a slightly above average superhero movie, was so important to so many people. Now you can see yourself reflected in the people you see on screen. And one of the privileges of being white is not having to do that. And I won't claim to understand what it is like to not see yourself represented, and how that can feel alienating. I've never really had to deal with it. But I'm not going to be dismissive of people who have experienced, and tell them that it isn't a big deal.


In the case of Black Panther in particular (unlike, I think, WW, although I'm sure a stronger case can be made for that movie) it's not simply seeing yourself on screen. The nation of Wakanda is a technological marvel, and it is implied that it could/would be the most powerful nation on the planet if it wanted to be. It has done so while still honoring its cultural and traditions. This will be emotionally resonant for a race that has been historically marginalized, subject to a diaspora, and has a complicated relationship with its history and traditions (which have historically been devalued and made invisible). The themes about the obligations that successful members of a marginalized people have to their larger community is also particularly resonant. You can say quite a bit about the gender representation in the film as well along similar lines.

They are themes and images that we (whites/white males/first world white males) can understand intellectually, but probably not emotionally. But being dismissive of other people's emotional experience, because we don't understand it or don't feel it, does not paint a particularly flattering picture of us. Especially during the launch, during the films moment.

[stip]

I think you're probably overreaching Stip but it is great that a criminally underrepresented segment of society is finally getting a superhero that looks like them and its resonating.

I think I'd say that in the end it isn't for you or I to say whether or not I'm overreaching. I think you need to ask the people who this resonates with how much it matters, and based on the response I think it's pretty clear what the answer is.

Similar to Wonder Woman which I thought was fine but meant a lot to people. I'm looking forward to seeing it but if I don't get into the showing I want because its sold out I'll probably have to vote for Trump next time.

Fair enough

[LoathedVermin72]

I’m not denying anyone’s emotional experience. But I do think it’s dubious that emotional reactions are being given so much weight because the film is a corporate-backed, mainstream venture. That is capitulation to corporatized art in an unsettling way; social import really only matters when loads of money and hype are behind it. But, again, maybe that’s just what social progress looks like in capitalist America now.

[stip]

you understand those are jokes right?

yes. you understand why that doesnt matter?

No. There are obvious jokes. It does matter that they are posted there just to be jokey about it, and of course we dont think and mean whatever those post say.

it is still cutting down and being dismissive of a culturally and socially empowering moment of representation of a historically (and currently) marginalized group. that it is under the guise of a ‘joke’ doesnt matter. thats better than the ‘but i have black friends’ defense, but its on that continuium. Nor have the people making the jokes established the awareness cache on this board for the ‘jokes’ to be actual jokes rather then a manifestation of privelage

Privilege? Man, dont even get there. I live in South America.

Besides that, you are missing the point here...we can make jokes and you are entitled to disagree with them, but i dont think they were offensive. I they bother you im sorry for that of course, but to say who is allowed to joke or have an opinion is dangerous.

No one said people couldn't make a joke or have an opinion. No one got in trouble, and no one was banned for anything. But just like you're allowed to say what you want (within the boundaries of the community standards we've adopted) I'm allowed to let you know what I think about them. Holding people accountable for what they say is not censorship.