Red Mosquito

Mike wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Mike wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

"I tried to produce this album from the crowd," Watt says. "What do we want as Pearl Jam fans?"

Blergh.

Yeah

Not to hold Rick Rubin up as any kind of yardstick, but he's right here:

Elsewhere in the conversation, Rubin discusses the irrelevance of knowing what audiences want to his process. "The audience comes last," he tells Cooper. "The audience doesn't know what they want. The audience only knows what's come before."

Yep, I agree. The thing is, when someone would have told me a producer is trying to get "what the fans want" out of Pearl Jam, what we heard so far is not what I would have imagined. I think full on fan service and making Ten/Vs. 2.0 is what I would have imagined (not what I would want though). Neither Dark Matter nor the clips of Something Special and Running sound anything close to that.

I genuinely don't think RM as a whole is going to be happy with any particular governing philosophy anymore; if PJ makes an album without thinking about us, it sucks; when PJ makes an album with the "jamily" in mind, it sucks; nothing short of inviting RM's resident audiophiles to PJ's studio to make an album with them is going to satisfy (and even then it'll suck, because of some reason)

Ms Harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Mike wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

"I tried to produce this album from the crowd," Watt says. "What do we want as Pearl Jam fans?"

Blergh.

Yeah

Not to hold Rick Rubin up as any kind of yardstick, but he's right here:

Elsewhere in the conversation, Rubin discusses the irrelevance of knowing what audiences want to his process. "The audience comes last," he tells Cooper. "The audience doesn't know what they want. The audience only knows what's come before."

Yep, I agree. The thing is, when someone would have told me a producer is trying to get "what the fans want" out of Pearl Jam, what we heard so far is not what I would have imagined. I think full on fan service and making Ten/Vs. 2.0 is what I would have imagined (not what I would want though). Neither Dark Matter nor the clips of Something Special and Running sound anything close to that.

I genuinely don't think RM as a whole is going to be happy with any particular governing philosophy anymore; if PJ makes an album without thinking about us, it sucks; when PJ makes an album with the "jamily" in mind, it sucks; nothing short of inviting RM's resident audiophiles to PJ's studio to make an album with them is going to satisfy (and even then it'll suck, because of some reason)

This feels like youre still missing some important things abotu what people are really saying.

I think RM wants authenticity above all.

And again, again, we/I can shit on the production adn still enjoy it. Trag cant. And thats fine

Strat wrote: This feels like youre still missing some important things abotu what people are really saying.

I think RM wants authenticity above all.

And again, again, we/I can shit on the production adn still enjoy it. Trag cant. And thats fine

Yeah, I'd prefer them to not think about fans at all. Just do whatever they like. Also, don't think about if the songs are going to be great live songs. Just bang out whatever they feel like.

Strat wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

Mike wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Mike wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

"I tried to produce this album from the crowd," Watt says. "What do we want as Pearl Jam fans?"

Blergh.

Yeah

Not to hold Rick Rubin up as any kind of yardstick, but he's right here:

Elsewhere in the conversation, Rubin discusses the irrelevance of knowing what audiences want to his process. "The audience comes last," he tells Cooper. "The audience doesn't know what they want. The audience only knows what's come before."

Yep, I agree. The thing is, when someone would have told me a producer is trying to get "what the fans want" out of Pearl Jam, what we heard so far is not what I would have imagined. I think full on fan service and making Ten/Vs. 2.0 is what I would have imagined (not what I would want though). Neither Dark Matter nor the clips of Something Special and Running sound anything close to that.

I genuinely don't think RM as a whole is going to be happy with any particular governing philosophy anymore; if PJ makes an album without thinking about us, it sucks; when PJ makes an album with the "jamily" in mind, it sucks; nothing short of inviting RM's resident audiophiles to PJ's studio to make an album with them is going to satisfy (and even then it'll suck, because of some reason)

This feels like youre still missing some important things abotu what people are really saying.

I think RM wants authenticity above all.

And again, again, we/I can shit on the production adn still enjoy it. Trag cant. And thats fine

we're fans

as fans, some of us are saying we want authenticity

so maybe "producing from the fans' perspective" will get us authenticity; we don't really have any clue what he means by that

in any case, last time the band sounded like they'd produced something authentic, something they'd been super into making, it was Backspacer

I haven't mentioned Trag

Mike wrote:

Strat wrote: This feels like youre still missing some important things abotu what people are really saying.

I think RM wants authenticity above all.

And again, again, we/I can shit on the production adn still enjoy it. Trag cant. And thats fine

Yeah, I'd prefer them to not think about fans at all. Just do whatever they like. Also, don't think about if the songs are going to be great live songs. Just bang out whatever they feel like.

so you don't want them to think about what they're most naturally inclined to think about?

Mike wrote:

Strat wrote: This feels like youre still missing some important things abotu what people are really saying.

I think RM wants authenticity above all.

And again, again, we/I can shit on the production adn still enjoy it. Trag cant. And thats fine

Yeah, I'd prefer them to not think about fans at all. Just do whatever they like. Also, don't think about if the songs are going to be great live songs. Just bang out whatever they feel like.

Do you produce any kind of art? I ask because as someone who does, I'm always interested in how it hits. I produce it because I have to- it's important to my existence to do so, but even as a nobody with no income ever derived from my art, I'm sure I'm still influenced by the opinions of people who enjoy it. In their case, how could they not be?

I'm not talking about Trag, or the production, I'm talking about the fact that Ed has said this is "our best work", and it's still not "authentic" enough; I don't get it, I'm trying to work it out

Jeez a lot of overwrought analysis here.

These guys get into a room (at least this go around) and come up with stuff that sounds good to their collective ears.

As Ed has said, it’s important to the band as a whole to make sure each guy gets his color of paint on their work.

So, in what way is that inauthentic?

RockPusher wrote:

Mike wrote:

Strat wrote: This feels like youre still missing some important things abotu what people are really saying.

I think RM wants authenticity above all.

And again, again, we/I can shit on the production adn still enjoy it. Trag cant. And thats fine

Yeah, I'd prefer them to not think about fans at all. Just do whatever they like. Also, don't think about if the songs are going to be great live songs. Just bang out whatever they feel like.

Do you produce any kind of art? I ask because as someone who does, I'm always interested in how it hits. I produce it because I have to- it's important to my existence to do so, but even as a nobody with no income ever derived from my art, I'm sure I'm still influenced by the opinions of people who enjoy it. In their case, how could they not be?

No I dont. I totally understand where you are coming from. I don‘t think Its possible to be completely without influence. Lets just say I prefer as little influence as possible. I would also never say what Pearl Jam is doing is inauthentic. They sound way too excited for that to be the case.

Ms Harmless wrote:I'm not talking about Trag, or the production, I'm talking about the fact that Ed has said this is "our best work", and it's still not "authentic" enough; I don't get it, I'm trying to work it out

Nobody has said this wasn't authentic. We haven't heard the album. I just brought up a point of what i want. Authenticity can be many of things. On its surface, a producer pushing them to please the fans....does not feel authentic to me

DDWJMUVW wrote:Jeez a lot of overwrought analysis here.

These guys get into a room (at least this go around) and come up with stuff that sounds good to their collective ears.

As Ed has said, it’s important to the band as a whole to make sure each guy gets his color of paint on their work.

So, in what way is that inauthentic?

You seem to have a really hard time with RM having discussions beyond "yea! yay pearl jam this rules i cant wait!"

Please calm down. This isn't the Pit.

Strat wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:I'm not talking about Trag, or the production, I'm talking about the fact that Ed has said this is "our best work", and it's still not "authentic" enough; I don't get it, I'm trying to work it out

Nobody has said this wasn't authentic. We haven't heard the album. I just brought up a point of what i want. Authenticity can be many of things. On its surface, a producer pushing them to please the fans....does not feel authentic to me

he didn't say he pushed them to do anything

Strat wrote:

DDWJMUVW wrote:Jeez a lot of overwrought analysis here.

These guys get into a room (at least this go around) and come up with stuff that sounds good to their collective ears.

As Ed has said, it’s important to the band as a whole to make sure each guy gets his color of paint on their work.

So, in what way is that inauthentic?

You seem to have a really hard time with RM having discussions beyond "yea! yay pearl jam this rules i cant wait!"

Please calm down. This isn't the Pit.

And im fully aware this was me 10-15 years ago. Sheesh!

Strat wrote:

DDWJMUVW wrote:Jeez a lot of overwrought analysis here.

These guys get into a room (at least this go around) and come up with stuff that sounds good to their collective ears.

As Ed has said, it’s important to the band as a whole to make sure each guy gets his color of paint on their work.

So, in what way is that inauthentic?

You seem to have a really hard time with RM having discussions beyond "yea! yay pearl jam this rules i cant wait!"

Please calm down. This isn't the Pit.

and you say this kind of thing every time someone says you're making no sense

Ms Harmless wrote:

Strat wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:I'm not talking about Trag, or the production, I'm talking about the fact that Ed has said this is "our best work", and it's still not "authentic" enough; I don't get it, I'm trying to work it out

Nobody has said this wasn't authentic. We haven't heard the album. I just brought up a point of what i want. Authenticity can be many of things. On its surface, a producer pushing them to please the fans....does not feel authentic to me

he didn't say he pushed them to do anything

okay, semantics, geezes christ.

What do you think this means? ""I tried to produce this album from the crowd," Watt says. "What do we want as Pearl Jam fans?""

I dont feel that is authentic. If you do, great. I personally dont. And im not saying it wont be an amazing album, or its not authentic to them.

I'm not saying "don't think of the fans" isn't a fine philosophy

it is

but they made records like that which we didn't like

There's a lot of ways to make a record. Im not excited about that approach.

Expecting a band, thirty-four years in, who has primarily made their bones on the road for the past two decades, to not consider the fans and/or the live experience when making new music, would be what I would view as entirely inauthentic, at least as concerns the band at the center of this board.

I mean, sure, ideally you should write songs which please you, the artist/band, first and foremost, and you trust that so long as you're happy, your fanbase will dig it, but, at the end of the day, every artist ultimately wants to be heard and enjoyed. A band like Radiohead, who some may point to as a band who ostensibly operate without concessions to fan expectation, are likely an exception here, at least to a degree.

It also wouldn't be fair for me to expect things from PJ which simply aren't within their character, at this juncture. They do care about songs in a live context, and, they've shown that they consider the fans, to an extent, when composing....That likely won't change.

oneway23 wrote:Expecting a band, thirty-four years in, who has primarily made their bones on the road for the past two decades, to not consider the fans and/or the live experience when making new music, would be what I would view as entirely inauthentic.

The folks here who think creativity should occur in some sort of a vacuum are maybe being a bit naive.

I mean, sure, ideally you should write songs which please you, the artist/band, first and foremost, and you trust that so long as you're happy, your fanbase will dig it, but, at the end of the day, every artist ultimately wants to be heard and enjoyed.

No no i am being ~idealistic~

Wait a moment. Why are we hanging on every word of producers, the band, etc.? Have we not been down this road for basically every album? Best work, fans are going to love it, we were energized…it’s all basically horseshit for fans to buy into it and get excited. There is not one thing here that said anything but the usually bland nonsense they always spew. The only thing we can logically conclude at this point is there’ll be a bunch of hard rocking songs, a few slower ones, a few mid tempo numbers that build…it’s the same formula with some tweaks to the riffs and lyrics. I, for one, can be on board for that (though I wish for a few good off-kilter tracks that will keep me engaged), but I take very little stock in the media quotes in the lead up.

Frankly, the last time they made an album in two weeks we got Backspacer and the last time they agonized over the stuff was Gigaton, so that’s not great, but maybe this is Backspacer done right, which is what I am sort of expecting after hearing Dark Matter the song.