Red Mosquito

how are you guys watching this?

Nevermind.

Whatever, nevermind.

bodysnatcher wrote:how are you guys watching this?

Nevermind.

Whatever, nevermind.

One of the things that has grated me about the current reconsideration of Kurt's life is that the Charles Cross book (Heavier Than Heaven) is frequently cited as the definitive biography of Kurt and Nirvana. As has been frequently stated before, the book takes a ton of liberties (particularly during Kurt's last month or so), is full of errors and in general presents a very Courtney Love-centric view of Kurt's life. It's a shame so many people think it's the definitive read on Nirvana, because it isn't. It's like a Lifetime movie.

If you want to read something that is self-serving and with many glaring omissions, you might as well read Come As You Are: The Nirvana Story. It's full of a lot of Kurt's misrepresentations and fabrications, but at least it's entertaining.

Or better yet, read Nirvana by Everett True, which despite being also the Everett True story (he inserts himself into the narrative on a regular basis, but he was there so sometimes it's actually necessary) is also the best-researched, the most even-handed and the most detailed. He also regularly debunks some of Charles Cross' and Courtney Love's bullshit. It's an absorbing read, and is by far the best book on the band.

I think none of us will ever really know the truth about certain things Kurt Cobain. I think that is where some of the ambiance comes from. He died so young and produced so much in such a short period of time that fans want to know what made him tick. I try not to judge what is in someone's head. I think he was a fucking genius though when it came to writing songs and he stood up for what he believed in. At the end of the day that is inspiring.

Strat wrote:

bodysnatcher wrote:how are you guys watching this?

Nevermind.

Whatever, nevermind.

There was a lot of PW in Kurt Cobain IMHO. I think Nirvana would have done a great Bastards of Young cover.

BigRedLedbetter wrote: There was a lot of PW in Kurt Cobain

I didn't know they were a thing...?

matt reeder wrote:One of the things that has grated me about the current reconsideration of Kurt's life is that the Charles Cross book (Heavier Than Heaven) is frequently cited as the definitive biography of Kurt and Nirvana. As has been frequently stated before, the book takes a ton of liberties (particularly during Kurt's last month or so), is full of errors and in general presents a very Courtney Love-centric view of Kurt's life. It's a shame so many people think it's the definitive read on Nirvana, because it isn't. It's like a Lifetime movie.

Cross's chapter on Kurt's suicide read like a set of stage directions -- you'd assume Cross had experienced some kind of "Being John Malkovich"-like possession of Cobain from the level of physical and psychological detail in his descriptions. I thought it was pretty tactless.

bodysnatcher wrote:I don't want to open some weird suicide/depression discussion at all. It's just a counterpoint to the discussion.

Agreed, the only point that I'd add to what's been said is that I don't think having a sympathetic understanding of Kurt's personal situation, and depression and mental health issues generally, is inconsistent with also thinking his suicide was incredibly selfish and an abhorrent thing to have done to his daughter.

I'll probably see this when it comes out on iTunes, whenever that might be.

Not the time and place for all of this as it doesn't necessarily apply to Cobain or the intent of this thread. Perhaps we should have a thread devoted to it. But I've never been a fan of the "suicide is selfish" rhetoric. At least as a catch-all. I have very specific ideas/feelings about it.

Kevin Davis wrote:

matt reeder wrote:One of the things that has grated me about the current reconsideration of Kurt's life is that the Charles Cross book (Heavier Than Heaven) is frequently cited as the definitive biography of Kurt and Nirvana. As has been frequently stated before, the book takes a ton of liberties (particularly during Kurt's last month or so), is full of errors and in general presents a very Courtney Love-centric view of Kurt's life. It's a shame so many people think it's the definitive read on Nirvana, because it isn't. It's like a Lifetime movie.

Cross's chapter on Kurt's suicide read like a set of stage directions -- you'd assume Cross had experienced some kind of "Being John Malkovich"-like possession of Cobain from the level of physical and psychological detail in his descriptions. I thought it was pretty tactless.

Also, I've never met a single person that likes Heavier Than Heaven, except Courtney fucking Love. Isn't it pretty universally regarded as pandering garbage?

I've never read it.

bodysnatcher wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote: There was a lot of PW in Kurt Cobain

I didn't know they were a thing...?

ZINGGGGGGGGGGGG

The everett true book is pretty entertaining.

Ironic name though, amirite?

durdencommatyler wrote:Also, I've never met a single person that likes Heavier Than Heaven, except Courtney fucking Love. Isn't it pretty universally regarded as pandering garbage?

I've never read it.

I read it when I was 18-19, dct -- I didn't really think to question much of it, I just remember thinking that he presumed an awareness of detail when describing certain things that he couldn't possibly possess. There was another part where he described Kurt losing his virginity, and he talked about how Kurt walked around the next day sniffing his fingertips to smell the girl's "essence" or something like that. What possible source would he have for something like that, and who the hell cares?

Honestly, musician bios in general don't really hold my interest, at least not beyond the parts that deal directly with the music and the creative process. I read a wonderful -- and, from what I can tell, exhaustively researched -- Thelonious Monk biography last summer, and even then I found myself glossing over the parts about his family's financial problems and his kids' birthdays and perking up when he'd get into the studio with Sonny Rollins and start jamming, or when he'd sit down at his piano and start noodling around with a melody that would eventually become "Straight, No Chaser." For as much as common biographical details might illuminate one's understanding of the art itself (though I'll admit that, for me, they rarely do), when told objectively they often just come off as dry, boring facts (and, as we've established, when embellished upon for effect, they feel exploitative if not altogether made up). My sole point of contact with these people is their music, and ultimately that's the subject that engages me.

I was thinking not long ago (on a day when I listened to "Bleach" and found myself for the first time really loving every track) that my appreciation for Nirvana is really at an all-time high right now; I loved them more intensely as a teenager, but there were also whole elements of their musical range that I just didn't "get." I think they've gone well past the bottom of the barrel with the archival stuff, but I wouldn't change a note of their core catalog -- the albums, the B-sides, pretty much everything not on "With the Lights Out" or the reissues. It's soul food for me at this point -- I love it all. How much of this movie would those who've seen it say is music-focused, and how much of it is details about his drug use, his marriage, etc?

I would like to hear good sounding copies of Kurt's pre-Nirvana demos. They exist, but they are reserved for special listening parties where high-up Nirvana collectors get together and blow each other.

Wendy Carlos's Twin wrote:I would like to hear good sounding copies of Kurt's pre-Nirvana demos. They exist, but they are reserved for special listening parties where high-up Nirvana collectors get together and blow each other.

What a scene!

durdencommatyler wrote:Ironic name though, amirite?

i giggled.

this doc isn't convincing me that the guy was very interesting or worth the hype. I'm kinda bored.

oh god, please dont show me Courtney Love naked. Now I'm gonna throw up.

Thanks for the recs on the True book. Found a link.


I didn't like the nodding out heroin scenes. If Kurt (or anyone) were still alive to defend themselves, own up to it; then Ok. Overall I dug the doc, especially sound check drain you.
One thing that I noticed was how similar Kurt's mom and Courtney are.

I found myself nervous for baby Frances even though she obviously survived. The haircut scene literally had me fidgeting on the couch with anxiety that something awful might happen. I kept thinking of Trainspotting. We will never know, but she might be dead if he wasn't. Just scary.

I decided I didn't like Kurt after reading Come As You Are 2 decades ago. Seemed like a real douche. This doc made me feel a little bit of sympathy. He went from happy toddler to self-absorbed asshole whiner. In the the middle of that, when he was a hyper kid, he needed parenting, and Don and Wendy didn't do their job. If they had, we wouldn't have had Nirvana, but he'd almost certainly be alive today.

What struck me about the footage of he and Courtney was that even though he was rich, he lived in such squalor. I guess that's being a junkie, but it shocked me anyway.

On a positive note, I just put all of their albums on my phone. I forgot how many great songs they have: Dive, Scentless Apprentice, Drain You, Aneurysm, Breed....I believe I will run faster this week.