Red Mosquito

digster wrote:I certainly don't think the production's doing them any favors, but I wouldn't say that it's all that's keeping them from reaching, or getting into the same neighborhood, as their earlier heights. Have to say in regards to Getaway; the decision to do a borderline sarcastic pop sensibility in the verses is really the only thing keeping that from power chord PJ-by-numbers. I wouldn't call it a classic, but it's certainly in the upper half of best LB tracks because of it. It doesn't work perfectly, but it feels inspired, at least.

I think mym, whole nothing new, is still excellent in its execution, and is made to feel fresh with the call to arms introspection in the second chorus and the call and response outro. My fathers son and infallible essentially feel new. So does sleeping by myself, actually. Even swallowed whole. And lightning bolt feels to me like the song Eddie has been trying to write for a long time, and musically it is terrific. And pendulum returns to a creative space they barely began to explore before walking away

That's well over half the album that, at least in terms of song craft feels inspired. And yellow moon, while the most familiar of all these songs, is still quite moving.

digster wrote:I still think it's more in their hands what they want the record to be than any producer; look at Riot Act and S/T. Same guy produced them, and in terms of presentation, you'd be hard-pressed to find two PJ records further apart.

S/t's production is reactionary though. I think what it sounds like reflects more what they didn't want it to sound like rather than a positive vision

digster wrote:I still think it's more in their hands what they want the record to be than any producer; look at Riot Act and S/T. Same guy produced them, and in terms of presentation, you'd be hard-pressed to find two PJ records further apart.

Yeah, this is probably the best argument for the idea that blaming producers is scapegoating. I don't know really.

stip wrote:

digster wrote:I still think it's more in their hands what they want the record to be than any producer; look at Riot Act and S/T. Same guy produced them, and in terms of presentation, you'd be hard-pressed to find two PJ records further apart.

S/t's production is reactionary though. I think what it sounds like reflects more what they didn't want it to sound like rather than a positive vision

It doesn't sound bad because it's reactionary. It sounds bad because it sounds bad, and they allowed it to sound bad. Nobody makes an album sound bad as a 'reactionary' statement.

I really have no issues with the production on LB. My issues are all with the songs themselves.

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

digster wrote:I still think it's more in their hands what they want the record to be than any producer; look at Riot Act and S/T. Same guy produced them, and in terms of presentation, you'd be hard-pressed to find two PJ records further apart.

S/t's production is reactionary though. I think what it sounds like reflects more what they didn't want it to sound like rather than a positive vision

It doesn't sound bad because it's reactionary. It sounds bad because it sounds bad, and they allowed it to sound bad. Nobody makes an album sound bad as a 'reactionary' statement.

Pearl jam did

Lament wrote:I really have no issues with the production on LB. My issues are all with the songs themselves.

I'd use the term production in this context pretty broadly, but maybe everyone is

For me it's both; the production is fine and doesn't anger me or anything, but it's so straightjacketed. Everything is timed perfectly; there is nothing that sounds imprecise as it did on Riot Act; the precision is clinical. Other than that, yes, the songs are lazy in places, and there are some very strange instrumental and compositional choices. What is with the OTT aaaaaaaaah backing vocals on most of the Infallible choruses? Things like that are destroying what would've been quite a dark, heavy song.

I don't think presentation necessarily means production i think it has more to do with the arrangement.

I'm talking about mixing levels, instrumentation choices and generally putting low in the mix what should've been put higher in the mix (most notably, guitars)

harmless wrote:For me it's both; the production is fine and doesn't anger me or anything, but it's so straightjacketed. Everything is timed perfectly; there is nothing that sounds imprecise as it did on Riot Act; the precision is clinical. Other than that, yes, the songs are lazy in places, and there are some very strange instrumental and compositional choices. What is with the OTT aaaaaaaaah backing vocals on most of the Infallible choruses? Things like that are destroying what would've been quite a dark, heavy song.

Infallible is a forgivable one for me. I prefer the darker verses and want a darker, more ominous song, but the infallible chorus is trying (effectively, I think) to move that part of the song to a lighter place. It's not where I want the song to go, but i don't think it's a bad choice

harmless wrote:I'm talking about mixing levels, instrumentation choices and generally putting low in the mix what should've been put higher in the mix (most notably, guitars)

Lightning Bolt (the song) is a crime in this regard.

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:For me it's both; the production is fine and doesn't anger me or anything, but it's so straightjacketed. Everything is timed perfectly; there is nothing that sounds imprecise as it did on Riot Act; the precision is clinical. Other than that, yes, the songs are lazy in places, and there are some very strange instrumental and compositional choices. What is with the OTT aaaaaaaaah backing vocals on most of the Infallible choruses? Things like that are destroying what would've been quite a dark, heavy song.

Infallible is a forgivable one for me. I prefer the darker verses and want a darker, more ominous song, but the infallible chorus is trying (effectively, I think) to move that part of the song to a lighter place. It's not where I want the song to go, but i don't think it's a bad choice

I agree in general and I made peace with the general two-mood structure of the song; I just don't like those BVs. Sometimes they sit back in the mix, depending on the speakers (they sit back in my headphones) but other times they stick out like a sore thumb, making a rock band sound like a happy boy band. It's like they're only a choreographer away from a dance routine.

The album version of "Save You" is barely a demo. They really should have fleshed that one out more. It's definitely a case where the live version is far superior.

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:For me it's both; the production is fine and doesn't anger me or anything, but it's so straightjacketed. Everything is timed perfectly; there is nothing that sounds imprecise as it did on Riot Act; the precision is clinical. Other than that, yes, the songs are lazy in places, and there are some very strange instrumental and compositional choices. What is with the OTT aaaaaaaaah backing vocals on most of the Infallible choruses? Things like that are destroying what would've been quite a dark, heavy song.

Infallible is a forgivable one for me. I prefer the darker verses and want a darker, more ominous song, but the infallible chorus is trying (effectively, I think) to move that part of the song to a lighter place. It's not where I want the song to go, but i don't think it's a bad choice

I agree in general and I made peace with the general two-mood structure of the song; I just don't like those BVs. Sometimes they sit back in the mix, depending on the speakers (they sit back in my headphones) but other times they stick out like a sore thumb, making a rock band sound like a happy boy band. It's like they're only a choreographer away from a dance routine.

They've always been backgrounded for me. I'm curious what you are hearing

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:For me it's both; the production is fine and doesn't anger me or anything, but it's so straightjacketed. Everything is timed perfectly; there is nothing that sounds imprecise as it did on Riot Act; the precision is clinical. Other than that, yes, the songs are lazy in places, and there are some very strange instrumental and compositional choices. What is with the OTT aaaaaaaaah backing vocals on most of the Infallible choruses? Things like that are destroying what would've been quite a dark, heavy song.

Infallible is a forgivable one for me. I prefer the darker verses and want a darker, more ominous song, but the infallible chorus is trying (effectively, I think) to move that part of the song to a lighter place. It's not where I want the song to go, but i don't think it's a bad choice

I agree in general and I made peace with the general two-mood structure of the song; I just don't like those BVs. Sometimes they sit back in the mix, depending on the speakers (they sit back in my headphones) but other times they stick out like a sore thumb, making a rock band sound like a happy boy band. It's like they're only a choreographer away from a dance routine.

They've always been backgrounded for me. I'm curious what you are hearing

There's 'backgrounded' (in as much as all BV's are backgrounded) and then there's almost non-existent. I'd prefer these BVs to be the latter as they're really quite obvious. They've also got this glossy robotic sheen on them that no PJ BVs ever did before.

stip wrote:

digster wrote:I certainly don't think the production's doing them any favors, but I wouldn't say that it's all that's keeping them from reaching, or getting into the same neighborhood, as their earlier heights. Have to say in regards to Getaway; the decision to do a borderline sarcastic pop sensibility in the verses is really the only thing keeping that from power chord PJ-by-numbers. I wouldn't call it a classic, but it's certainly in the upper half of best LB tracks because of it. It doesn't work perfectly, but it feels inspired, at least.

I think mym, whole nothing new, is still excellent in its execution, and is made to feel fresh with the call to arms introspection in the second chorus and the call and response outro. My fathers son and infallible essentially feel new. So does sleeping by myself, actually. Even swallowed whole. And lightning bolt feels to me like the song Eddie has been trying to write for a long time, and musically it is terrific. And pendulum returns to a creative space they barely began to explore before walking away

That's well over half the album that, at least in terms of song craft feels inspired. And yellow moon, while the most familiar of all these songs, is still quite moving.

I'd definitely say they improved upon the last record, maybe the last two. I don't think their issue on this record is bad songwriting (for the most part). I just don't find it to be particularly compelling. I feel like it's not too bad, it could be worse, and maybe that's just not enough for me from PJ not to feel a little somewhat disappointed. I didn't dislike it, but I haven't really had any drive to listen to that particular record for some months. I think that's different than Backspacer, where I thought the songs were, in large part, bad. But I don't want to make it seem like I think the record's a piece of shit or anything.

I think part of it, for me, is that although bands always seem to inevitably degrade in consistency of quality as they age, PJ should have more in them than they've shown, even compared to their peers that have been around a similar length of time. They've made great, good, mediocre and poor albums, but it seems like they've been in the shallow end of the pool for quite a while.

Wendy Carlos's Twin wrote:The album version of "Save You" is barely a demo. They really should have fleshed that one out more. It's definitely a case where the live version is far superior.

I sort of agree, but I really like Matt and Jeff's performance in that song. I can see that one being one of the songs Matt talked about once where the rehearsal take wound up in the album.

digster wrote:

stip wrote:

digster wrote:I certainly don't think the production's doing them any favors, but I wouldn't say that it's all that's keeping them from reaching, or getting into the same neighborhood, as their earlier heights. Have to say in regards to Getaway; the decision to do a borderline sarcastic pop sensibility in the verses is really the only thing keeping that from power chord PJ-by-numbers. I wouldn't call it a classic, but it's certainly in the upper half of best LB tracks because of it. It doesn't work perfectly, but it feels inspired, at least.

I think mym, whole nothing new, is still excellent in its execution, and is made to feel fresh with the call to arms introspection in the second chorus and the call and response outro. My fathers son and infallible essentially feel new. So does sleeping by myself, actually. Even swallowed whole. And lightning bolt feels to me like the song Eddie has been trying to write for a long time, and musically it is terrific. And pendulum returns to a creative space they barely began to explore before walking away

That's well over half the album that, at least in terms of song craft feels inspired. And yellow moon, while the most familiar of all these songs, is still quite moving.

I'd definitely say they improved upon the last record, maybe the last two. I don't think their issue on this record is bad songwriting (for the most part). I just don't find it to be particularly compelling. I feel like it's not too bad, it could be worse, and maybe that's just not enough for me from PJ not to feel a little somewhat disappointed. I didn't dislike it, but I haven't really had any drive to listen to that particular record for some months. I think that's different than Backspacer, where I thought the songs were, in large part, bad. But I don't want to make it seem like I think the record's a piece of shit or anything.

I think part of it, for me, is that although bands always seem to inevitably degrade in consistency of quality as they age, PJ should have more in them than they've shown, even compared to their peers that have been around a similar length of time. They've made great, good, mediocre and poor albums, but it seems like they've been in the shallow end of the pool for quite a while.

Riot Act? More like Quiet Act.... amiright?