Red Mosquito

If this was really a coordinated effort by DEMs to take down Trump through the Legal system, they would wait for the more egregious cases (Georgia, classified docs) to come and go all in on those.

I mean they literally have him on the phone w/ Georgia asking to find the exact number of votes he needed to win.

BurtReynolds wrote:

Peeps wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

elliseamos wrote:I don't think we have to imagine it...

"...leaders who left office since 2000 have been jailed or prosecuted in at least 78 countries — including in democracies like France, Israel and South Korea."

I've seen this idea several places now, but I'm not sure it's the same thing. Were those situations where "a government prosecuted a corrupt ex-President" or that they prosecuted a corrupt ex-PM?

fixed it for you

One doesn't erase the other.

It probably should, you would think.

Peeps wrote:life comes at you pretty fast kimberly gargoyle

Lol. Forgot about that

BurtReynolds wrote:

Peeps wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

elliseamos wrote:I don't think we have to imagine it...

"...leaders who left office since 2000 have been jailed or prosecuted in at least 78 countries — including in democracies like France, Israel and South Korea."

I've seen this idea several places now, but I'm not sure it's the same thing. Were those situations where "a government prosecuted a corrupt ex-President" or that they prosecuted a corrupt ex-PM?

fixed it for you

One doesn't erase the other.

Exactly. I think Putin something like this with Navaleny (or whatever his name is), but prosecuting a presidential candidate for the opposing party during a race is something new AFAIK.

the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

My question isn't "did Trump do it?" It's "how many other politicians get away with this sort of thing?"

tree_ wrote:

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

My question isn't "did Trump do it?" It's "how many other politicians get away with this sort of thing?"

WHAT HAPPENED IN JOHN EDWARDS TRIAL

Jurors acquitted Edwards of accepting illegal campaign contributions from Mellon. But they deadlocked on three other counts of receiving illegal campaign contributions, making false statements and conspiracy. After the trial ended with a hung jury, prosecutors chose not to retry the case, weighing its complexity and cost — the investigation cost $2 million — versus the payoff. “We knew that this case — like all campaign finance cases — would be challenging,” Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer of the Justice Department’s Criminal Division said in a statement at the time. “But it is our duty to bring hard cases when we believe that the facts and the law support charging a candidate for high office with a crime.” Jeff Welty, a professor at UNC School of Government, followed the Edwards case closely.

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

totally agree.

his campaign was sending fake mugshots along w/ asking for donations $$$

Can you imagine that these poor AF people actually send him money? What a world.

tree_ wrote:

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

My question isn't "did Trump do it?" It's "how many other politicians get away with this sort of thing?"

But what did he do exactly?

My understanding is he paid Cohen to pay AMI and the two women through a shell company to not publicize stories about affairs with them. That is completely legal. The first illegal part appears to be that his businesses recorded the payments as 'legal services', though no legal contract with Cohen existed. Thus the misdemeanor business fraud charges. The second part of it is that he allegedly did this to interfere in the 2016 election by preventing potentially defamatory information from being published, conspiracy, and that elevates it to felonies. But this doesn't make sense because not only has he not been even indicted for that, it is a federal crime and thus beyond the scope of what NY County AG Bragg can charge him with. IIRC the feds even declined to charge him for it. So he's charged with 34 felonies for improperly recording legitimate financial transactions, one for each bad line in his businesses ledgers, and conspiring to cover up a crime he's not admitted to or been charged with involvement in.

It's all very confusing, so I might be totally wrong here.

Edit:

Bi_3 wrote:

tree_ wrote:

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

My question isn't "did Trump do it?" It's "how many other politicians get away with this sort of thing?"

But what did he do exactly?

My understanding is he paid Cohen to pay AMI and the two women through a shell company to not publicize stories about affairs with them. That is completely legal. The first illegal part appears to be that his businesses recorded the payments as 'legal services', though no legal contract with Cohen existed. Thus the misdemeanor business fraud charges. The second part of it is that he allegedly did this to interfere in the 2016 election by preventing potentially defamatory information from being published, conspiracy, and that elevates it to felonies. But this doesn't make sense because not only has he not been even indicted for that, it is a federal crime and thus beyond the scope of what NY County AG Bragg can charge him with. IIRC the feds even declined to charge him for it. So he's charged with 34 felonies for improperly recording legitimate financial transactions, one for each bad line in his businesses ledgers, and conspiring to cover up a crime he's not admitted to or been charged with involvement in.

It's all very confusing, so I might be totally wrong here.

This may come as a surprise to some of you, but I don't know much about law. This is why I was calling for Chris to explain it to us like we were five-year-olds. It doesn't make sense to me either. And what is just a common sense thought for me "which other politicians have been guilty of this crime without being held accountable?" is just more fodder for the Trumper powder keg, because it doesn't look good that he's being singled out for this. I really wish the big trial we were all tuned into were something more obviously sinister, like the attempt to "find" more votes.

Bi_3 wrote:

tree_ wrote:

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

My question isn't "did Trump do it?" It's "how many other politicians get away with this sort of thing?"

But what did he do exactly?

My understanding is he paid Cohen to pay AMI and the two women through a shell company to not publicize stories about affairs with them. That is completely legal. The first illegal part appears to be that his businesses recorded the payments as 'legal services', though no legal contract with Cohen existed. Thus the misdemeanor business fraud charges. The second part of it is that he allegedly did this to interfere in the 2016 election by preventing potentially defamatory information from being published, conspiracy, and that elevates it to felonies. But this doesn't make sense because not only has he not been even indicted for that, it is a federal crime and thus beyond the scope of what NY County AG Bragg can charge him with. IIRC the feds even declined to charge him for it. So he's charged with 34 felonies for improperly recording legitimate financial transactions, one for each bad line in his businesses ledgers, and conspiring to cover up a crime he's not admitted to or been charged with involvement in.

It's all very confusing, so I might be totally wrong here.

Edit:

I believe he’s being charged with election interference at the state level, even though it was a federal election. So NY does have jurisdiction there.

tree_ wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tree_ wrote:

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

My question isn't "did Trump do it?" It's "how many other politicians get away with this sort of thing?"

But what did he do exactly?

My understanding is he paid Cohen to pay AMI and the two women through a shell company to not publicize stories about affairs with them. That is completely legal. The first illegal part appears to be that his businesses recorded the payments as 'legal services', though no legal contract with Cohen existed. Thus the misdemeanor business fraud charges. The second part of it is that he allegedly did this to interfere in the 2016 election by preventing potentially defamatory information from being published, conspiracy, and that elevates it to felonies. But this doesn't make sense because not only has he not been even indicted for that, it is a federal crime and thus beyond the scope of what NY County AG Bragg can charge him with. IIRC the feds even declined to charge him for it. So he's charged with 34 felonies for improperly recording legitimate financial transactions, one for each bad line in his businesses ledgers, and conspiring to cover up a crime he's not admitted to or been charged with involvement in.

It's all very confusing, so I might be totally wrong here.

This may come as a surprise to some of you, but I don't know much about law. This is why I was calling for Chris to explain it to us like we were five-year-olds. It doesn't make sense to me either. And what is just a common sense thought for me "which other politicians have been guilty of this crime without being held accountable?" is just more fodder for the Trumper powder keg, because it doesn't look good that he's being singled out for this. I really wish the big trial we were all tuned into were something more obviously sinister, like the attempt to "find" more votes.

If he’d just made hush money payments, it wouldn’t be much of a crime. But what the DA intends to prove is that he then took several steps to conceal those payments, breaking laws along the way, which raises it to a felony.

spike wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tree_ wrote:

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

My question isn't "did Trump do it?" It's "how many other politicians get away with this sort of thing?"

But what did he do exactly?

My understanding is he paid Cohen to pay AMI and the two women through a shell company to not publicize stories about affairs with them. That is completely legal. The first illegal part appears to be that his businesses recorded the payments as 'legal services', though no legal contract with Cohen existed. Thus the misdemeanor business fraud charges. The second part of it is that he allegedly did this to interfere in the 2016 election by preventing potentially defamatory information from being published, conspiracy, and that elevates it to felonies. But this doesn't make sense because not only has he not been even indicted for that, it is a federal crime and thus beyond the scope of what NY County AG Bragg can charge him with. IIRC the feds even declined to charge him for it. So he's charged with 34 felonies for improperly recording legitimate financial transactions, one for each bad line in his businesses ledgers, and conspiring to cover up a crime he's not admitted to or been charged with involvement in.

It's all very confusing, so I might be totally wrong here.

Edit:

I believe he’s being charged with election interference at the state level, even though it was a federal election. So NY does have jurisdiction there.

That's my understanding, too. Not a strong case to articulate, but a jury did vote to indict. I dunno, the Georgia case seems more serious.

Coach wrote:

spike wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tree_ wrote:

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

My question isn't "did Trump do it?" It's "how many other politicians get away with this sort of thing?"

But what did he do exactly?

My understanding is he paid Cohen to pay AMI and the two women through a shell company to not publicize stories about affairs with them. That is completely legal. The first illegal part appears to be that his businesses recorded the payments as 'legal services', though no legal contract with Cohen existed. Thus the misdemeanor business fraud charges. The second part of it is that he allegedly did this to interfere in the 2016 election by preventing potentially defamatory information from being published, conspiracy, and that elevates it to felonies. But this doesn't make sense because not only has he not been even indicted for that, it is a federal crime and thus beyond the scope of what NY County AG Bragg can charge him with. IIRC the feds even declined to charge him for it. So he's charged with 34 felonies for improperly recording legitimate financial transactions, one for each bad line in his businesses ledgers, and conspiring to cover up a crime he's not admitted to or been charged with involvement in.

It's all very confusing, so I might be totally wrong here.

Edit:

I believe he’s being charged with election interference at the state level, even though it was a federal election. So NY does have jurisdiction there.

That's my understanding, too. Not a strong case to articulate, but a jury did vote to indict. I dunno, the Georgia case seems more serious.

It’s not double jeopardy. Those charges are coming as well.

spike wrote:

Coach wrote:

spike wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tree_ wrote:

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

My question isn't "did Trump do it?" It's "how many other politicians get away with this sort of thing?"

But what did he do exactly?

My understanding is he paid Cohen to pay AMI and the two women through a shell company to not publicize stories about affairs with them. That is completely legal. The first illegal part appears to be that his businesses recorded the payments as 'legal services', though no legal contract with Cohen existed. Thus the misdemeanor business fraud charges. The second part of it is that he allegedly did this to interfere in the 2016 election by preventing potentially defamatory information from being published, conspiracy, and that elevates it to felonies. But this doesn't make sense because not only has he not been even indicted for that, it is a federal crime and thus beyond the scope of what NY County AG Bragg can charge him with. IIRC the feds even declined to charge him for it. So he's charged with 34 felonies for improperly recording legitimate financial transactions, one for each bad line in his businesses ledgers, and conspiring to cover up a crime he's not admitted to or been charged with involvement in.

It's all very confusing, so I might be totally wrong here.

Edit:

I believe he’s being charged with election interference at the state level, even though it was a federal election. So NY does have jurisdiction there.

That's my understanding, too. Not a strong case to articulate, but a jury did vote to indict. I dunno, the Georgia case seems more serious.

It’s not double jeopardy. Those charges are coming as well.

oh yeah, I think the three big ones are this, classified docs and Georgia

spike wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tree_ wrote:

warehouse wrote:the law was eventually gonna bite this idiot in the ass, timing has nothing to do with it. in fact, if we've seen anything, these charges are HELPING him with election #s. this isn't some kinda grand scheme by the democratic party. does anyone doubt trump has broken multiple laws?

My question isn't "did Trump do it?" It's "how many other politicians get away with this sort of thing?"

But what did he do exactly?

My understanding is he paid Cohen to pay AMI and the two women through a shell company to not publicize stories about affairs with them. That is completely legal. The first illegal part appears to be that his businesses recorded the payments as 'legal services', though no legal contract with Cohen existed. Thus the misdemeanor business fraud charges. The second part of it is that he allegedly did this to interfere in the 2016 election by preventing potentially defamatory information from being published, conspiracy, and that elevates it to felonies. But this doesn't make sense because not only has he not been even indicted for that, it is a federal crime and thus beyond the scope of what NY County AG Bragg can charge him with. IIRC the feds even declined to charge him for it. So he's charged with 34 felonies for improperly recording legitimate financial transactions, one for each bad line in his businesses ledgers, and conspiring to cover up a crime he's not admitted to or been charged with involvement in.

It's all very confusing, so I might be totally wrong here.

Edit:

I believe he’s being charged with election interference at the state level, even though it was a federal election. So NY does have jurisdiction there.

I honestly thought so too but: (from the Vox link above)

In a vague statement made after Trump’s arraignment, Bragg claims the concealed records scheme “violated New York election law, which makes it a crime to conspire to promote a candidacy by unlawful means.” But this legal theory is not mentioned at all in the indictment or the accompanying statement of facts.

It almost seems like there was suppose to be a separate federal case that was the prerequisite to this one and that never happened.

More on the issues with this: https://slate.com/news-and-politics/202 ... stake.html

It's just that this is something I bet most people wouldn't have much of an ethical concern about, and surely for many politicians past and present something like this is standard operating procedure. Trump sucks for so many reasons, but this is very low on that list.

Ian Millsner is normally the most hysterical legal commenter. It's very confusing to read something by him and think he might be on to something.

tree_ wrote:It's just that this is something I bet most people wouldn't have much of an ethical concern about, and surely for many politicians past and present something like this is standard operating procedure. Trump sucks for so many reasons, but this is very low on that list.

Are you talking solely about the hush money, or the conspiratorial steps he took to hide it because he wanted to be president?