Red Mosquito

tragabigzanda wrote:oh hey i listened to Donda.

I really liked Believe What I say, and Jail and Keep My Spirit Alive were both pretty good. Everything else was exactly what I figured it'd be.

I swear I'm not trying to be contrarian, but it boggles my mind that the reaction to this album is so strong.

You're off the grid-grid-grid

Yeezus and 808s are both so interesting in the context of the rest of his career (a career of which I am only mildly familiar with) and they are both enough to get me more interested, hence the Graduation love today. Love the Can reference and the Steely Dan sample on this one.

I listened to Yeezus the other day in it's entirely for the first time and really enjoyed it. Easy to hear why it's such a polarizing record, but even moreso it's a great window into how hard he wears his heart on his sleeve when he's going through one of his big Kanye things. Donda feels the same for me as I listen in context after the last few years he's had. This one really feels like he's getting something out and I'm here for it. The doubling down on the gospel/god thing feels like...something. Misdirection, maybe? What's the psychological word for when you focus your energy on something indirectly related to what's going on?

Anyway, if the music wasn't good I probably wouldn't be going down this Ye hole right now, but here we are. :shrugs:

tragabigzanda wrote:Just thinking after reading your post WM, do most Kanye fans here on RM see him first and foremost as an artist who writes autobiographical songs about himself? Or as a "spokesmodel of his generation" type who is discussing larger issues? I could see an argument for both up until TLOP, but then it seemed like things became decidedly more about Kanye, and I just have no interest.

I see him first and foremost as an artist. He may not always get it right but he sets out to complete his own vision and works hard to achieve it.

He's all over the map with his social commentary. Sometimes spot on and sometimes mire wingnut. He can be quite insightful when his songs look inward.

I look at the list of people who he has worked with, many of the repeatedly. It makes me think he has a huge ego about the finished product but checks his head at the door in making it. I think he's the most interesting musical artist in the 21st century. That encapsulates not just his music but his clothing line and how he goes about achieving his art.

yeah, i see him as an artist, a good rapper and a great producer. I mostly have no clue about what the lyrics are about or what he is saying.

tragabigzanda wrote:oh hey i listened to Donda.

Dragged kicking and screaming. What a performance!

tragabigzanda wrote:Just thinking after reading your post WM, do most Kanye fans here on RM see him first and foremost as an artist who writes autobiographical songs about himself? Or as a "spokesmodel of his generation" type who is discussing larger issues? I could see an argument for both up until TLOP, but then it seemed like things became decidedly more about Kanye, and I just have no interest.

There was a moment early in his career, prior to his public persona becoming legion, where Kanye was briefly lumped in with "conscious" rappers like Common, Talib Kweli, etc., partially because those were the guys he was bringing on for guest spots, but also because a few of his most visible early tracks had topical, moralizing airs to them -- I'm thinking of songs like "We Don't Care," "Jesus Walks," "Diamonds From Sierra Leone," etc., where it seemed like he was looking outside himself and addressing the world at large. But I think even on those early records, songs like that were red herrings; to me Kanye feels very much like an artist who has always written first and foremost about himself and his own experiences, with any elements of zeigeist that come through in his work being (as they usually are) largely circumstantial and beyond his control. I tend to believe that artists who find themselves in that space (that "voice of a generation" role) are just as likely to get there by writing what's personal (i.e. Cobain, Corgan) as opposed to things that intentionally reach out and speak for other people (i.e. early Dylan), and while I've never heard that label applied to Kanye, I definitely don't think the answer to your initial question couldn't be "both."

I think, most of the time, when artists get criticized for being too narcissistic in their music, it has more to do with what we know about how they behave in the public eye than with general objections to the concept of egocentrism in art. It happens with Taylor Swift too, i.e. people reacting way more aggressively to the content of her music based on what they know about her from the news. Not to say self-regard in music can't be offputting when put across in a certain way, and it hits a breaking point when the egocentrism becomes so self-obsessed that it is exclusionary, but I think this is rare; even when artists are highly specific in detailing their own experiences, listeners are generally pretty good at shifting their recepion of a work to understand what that highly personal experience means and, if done well, how it might apply to them too. I think it would be interesting to see if someone who somehow knew nothing about Kanye as a person (but was generally inclined to enjoy the kind of music he makes) had the same kind of gag reflex to his self-referencing as someone who is more tuned into his public antics. My guess is they probably wouldn't.

For some context, I really like all of Kanye's work up through My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy, have mixed feelings about his output since, do not claim to be above the kinds of reactions described in my previous paragraph, and am not trying to say that Trag's specific reaction (or anyone else's) to this album is merely a projected reaction to his opinion of Kanye as a celebrity. But I do think it happens, and I think it happens with Kanye (and with other similarly famous people) all the time.

My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy is one of the best albums from the last 15 years.

This is a fun discussion to read. I do feel myself going on a kanye deep dive very soon.

Trag, what is backpacker hip-hop? I have an idea based on context, but I'd like to hear an elaboration.

man i loved Blackalicious back in the day. I have never listened to them again for some reason.

Jurassic 5 still sits atop that list. I haven't listened to them in far too long.

tragabigzanda wrote:If you take Kanye's persona out of the assessment -- which is very easy for me to do.

You're the undisputed king of walking it back at this point.

Like come on dude.

Ello Sailor wrote:Jurassic 5 still sits atop that list. I haven't listened to them in far too long.

Marry me

Think I'm going to go on a Digable Planets binge tonight