Re: tree_Maybe Wants to Talk About Systematic Racism in the
Posted: Sat June 13, 2020 4:42 pm
by bada
wease wrote:
bada wrote:Crom is the only acceptable answer.
Only Barbarians from the north worship Crom. Mitra take you!
Crom laughs at your Mitra. He laughs on his mountain.
Re: tree_Maybe Wants to Talk About Systematic Racism in the
Posted: Sat June 13, 2020 6:41 pm
by wease
bada wrote:
wease wrote:
bada wrote:Crom is the only acceptable answer.
Only Barbarians from the north worship Crom. Mitra take you!
Crom laughs at your Mitra. He laughs on his mountain.
Mitra fears not Crom's uncivilized ways.
Re: tree_Maybe Wants to Talk About Systematic Racism in the
Posted: Sat June 13, 2020 6:59 pm
by knee tunes
McParadigm wrote:
tree_ wrote:Yeah well I'm just trying to learn on the fly... Pretty ignorant for sure
Learning to fly is a process by which someone recognizes that they don’t know how to fly, then sits and listens to people who do know for a very long time. Slowly, with assistance and care, they take incremental, practiced steps towards doing it for themselves. Their criticism level is low (especially at first), because they inherently recognize that their doubt or suspicion is almost universally fed by the very fact that brought them in, in the first place: their own lack of knowing.
If you think that’s what you’re doing here, then you really are doing it in the worst possible way.
Protecting predisposed beliefs, on the other hand, is a process by which every bit of information that doesn’t support those beliefs is dismissed, treated to disproportionate skepticism, and viewed as disprovable via posed questions (rather than direct response facts). In some people, this urge manifests itself aggressively, meaning they have an impulse to try and actively create situations where they can repel information in order to reenforce their own internal bias. And it is, in fact, a very powerful way to remain ignorant.
I think he said learn on the fly.
Also, people don't fly
Re: tree_Maybe Wants to Talk About Systematic Racism in the
Posted: Sat June 13, 2020 8:09 pm
by McParadigm
knee tunes wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
tree_ wrote:Yeah well I'm just trying to learn on the fly... Pretty ignorant for sure
Learning to fly is a process by which someone recognizes that they don’t know how to fly, then sits and listens to people who do know for a very long time. Slowly, with assistance and care, they take incremental, practiced steps towards doing it for themselves. Their criticism level is low (especially at first), because they inherently recognize that their doubt or suspicion is almost universally fed by the very fact that brought them in, in the first place: their own lack of knowing.
If you think that’s what you’re doing here, then you really are doing it in the worst possible way.
Protecting predisposed beliefs, on the other hand, is a process by which every bit of information that doesn’t support those beliefs is dismissed, treated to disproportionate skepticism, and viewed as disprovable via posed questions (rather than direct response facts). In some people, this urge manifests itself aggressively, meaning they have an impulse to try and actively create situations where they can repel information in order to reenforce their own internal bias. And it is, in fact, a very powerful way to remain ignorant.
I think he said learn on the fly.
Also, people don't fly
lol I can’t read.
That’s fine, though. All I was really using that for is a jumping off point to demonstrate the difference between honest intellectual pursuit and the behaviors of worldview self-confirmation.
Re: tree_Maybe Wants to Talk About Systematic Racism in the
Posted: Mon June 15, 2020 1:16 pm
by tree_
OK, so Sam pretty much answered all of my questions on this. There definitely is racism, some systemic, but not where people are saying there is and it's getting better. 2019 had the least police violence in like 20 years. We were heading in the right direction but maybe not anymore because people have gone crazy.
Re: tree_Maybe Wants to Talk About Systematic Racism in the
Posted: Mon June 15, 2020 2:45 pm
by McParadigm
tree_ wrote:2019 had the least police violence in like 20 years.
Re: tree_Maybe Wants to Talk About Systematic Racism in the
Posted: Mon June 15, 2020 2:49 pm
by tree_
Oh. I guess Sam's stats were LA stats. Forgot about that. Where'd you get that info? Looks like a useful stat tool.
Re: tree_Maybe Wants to Talk About Systematic Racism in the
Posted: Mon June 15, 2020 3:38 pm
by wease
McParadigm wrote:
tree_ wrote:2019 had the least police violence in like 20 years.
Accurate statistics mean nothing. tree_ laughs at your graphs.
Re: tree_Maybe Wants to Talk About Systematic Racism in the
Posted: Mon June 15, 2020 3:44 pm
by tree_
No, wease, I'm sorry but that would be true about those on your side of the racism debate. Take that finger you're pointing and turn it right back around. OK?
Re: tree_Maybe Wants to Talk About Systematic Racism in the
Posted: Mon June 15, 2020 4:24 pm
by McParadigm
tree_ wrote:Oh. I guess Sam's stats were LA stats. Forgot about that. Where'd you get that info? Looks like a useful stat tool.
The lack of a comprehensive federal data report makes this statistic hard to track, because each tracking organization sets its own individual standards for whether a data point meets the criteria. So the numbers vary slightly across sources, but the trend line is the same.
Here’s the Washington Post’s annual figures, on their long-running fatal force tracker, which is slightly narrower in terms of what it will recognize as a fatal force event:
2017: 986
2018: 991
2019: 1,002
Re: Cops Are The Worst
Posted: Tue June 16, 2020 1:22 pm
by tree_
Bi_3 wrote:
tree_ wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:tree, you're not helping here.
How so?
Because you keep oversimplifying things into tropes like "black crime". While black Americans absolutely do commit violent crimes at a much higher rate, you should really consider the possibility of "why" and that all of this is connected. Systemic racism, poverty, crime, policing... these are all factors that amplify each other and make up the shitstorm the country finds itself in today. Trying, as many of your recent posts do, to reduce it to just "more crime = more police contact = more deaths" ignores a lot, if not the majority, of what has been going on for centuries to the black community.
Again, facts aren't racist. Of course "why" they commit so much more crime is an important question. Surely poverty, which yes, undoubtedly has a lot to do with the legacy of racism in the US is a huge variable. But police doing their jobs and addressing crime where it exists is not racism. That narrative is incorrect. Police of all colors target blacks more in areas with high rates of black crime. Of course black lives matter. Of course all lives matter. Black on black crime is the biggest issue. Not cops addressing the crime.
Re: Cops Are The Worst
Posted: Tue June 16, 2020 1:44 pm
by tree_
The ironic tragedy of this so-called BLM movement is black people will suffer because cops will be too scared to do their jobs in black communities with high black on black crime.
Re: Cops Are The Worst
Posted: Tue June 16, 2020 2:37 pm
by tree_
Pretty sure we need robot police. Humans just aren't up to the task. Or clones of the perfect cop.
Re: Cops Are The Worst
Posted: Tue June 16, 2020 2:54 pm
by tree_
Also we need robot fast food workers. And robot drivers. Humans are generally awful and untrustworthy.
Re: Cops Are The Worst
Posted: Tue June 16, 2020 2:59 pm
by tree_
Will robot police also be deemed racist for the higher rate of black interactions?
Re: Cops Are The Worst
Posted: Tue June 16, 2020 3:10 pm
by B
tree_ wrote:Will robot police also be deemed racist for the higher rate of black interactions?
No, but their programmers will.
Re: Cops Are The Worst
Posted: Tue June 16, 2020 3:10 pm
by Bi_3
tree_ wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
tree_ wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:tree, you're not helping here.
How so?
Because you keep oversimplifying things into tropes like "black crime". While black Americans absolutely do commit violent crimes at a much higher rate, you should really consider the possibility of "why" and that all of this is connected. Systemic racism, poverty, crime, policing... these are all factors that amplify each other and make up the shitstorm the country finds itself in today. Trying, as many of your recent posts do, to reduce it to just "more crime = more police contact = more deaths" ignores a lot, if not the majority, of what has been going on for centuries to the black community.
Again, facts aren't racist. Of course "why" they commit so much more crime is an important question. Surely poverty, which yes, undoubtedly has a lot to do with the legacy of racism in the US is a huge variable. But police doing their jobs and addressing crime where it exists is not racism. That narrative is incorrect. Police of all colors target blacks more in areas with high rates of black crime. Of course black lives matter. Of course all lives matter. Black on black crime is the biggest issue. Not cops addressing the crime.
I agree that cops are not out there racisting things up. Cops are nearly all respectful and effective, around 70% of them never even unholster their firearm. The perception is interesting amoungst officers:
Re: Cops Are The Worst
Posted: Tue June 16, 2020 3:12 pm
by Strat
tree_ wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
tree_ wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:tree, you're not helping here.
How so?
Because you keep oversimplifying things into tropes like "black crime". While black Americans absolutely do commit violent crimes at a much higher rate, you should really consider the possibility of "why" and that all of this is connected. Systemic racism, poverty, crime, policing... these are all factors that amplify each other and make up the shitstorm the country finds itself in today. Trying, as many of your recent posts do, to reduce it to just "more crime = more police contact = more deaths" ignores a lot, if not the majority, of what has been going on for centuries to the black community.
Again, facts aren't racist. Of course "why" they commit so much more crime is an important question. Surely poverty, which yes, undoubtedly has a lot to do with the legacy of racism in the US is a huge variable. But police doing their jobs and addressing crime where it exists is not racism. That narrative is incorrect. Police of all colors target blacks more in areas with high rates of black crime. Of course black lives matter. Of course all lives matter. Black on black crime is the biggest issue. Not cops addressing the crime.
The "why" is a huge fucking part of it though, tree. Why are crime rates higher? it could be because black people are getting punished a lot more stringently for the same crimes white people commit. Learn about the war on drugs and that could help you a bit here. Crime rates in many of these neighborhoods are often fueled by petty bullshit crimes that shouldnt even be on the fucking radar.
Re: Cops Are The Worst
Posted: Tue June 16, 2020 3:17 pm
by Strat
and tree why aren't you talking about white on white crime?
Re: Cops Are The Worst
Posted: Tue June 16, 2020 3:17 pm
by tree_
Strat wrote:
tree_ wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:
tree_ wrote:
Bi_3 wrote:tree, you're not helping here.
How so?
Because you keep oversimplifying things into tropes like "black crime". While black Americans absolutely do commit violent crimes at a much higher rate, you should really consider the possibility of "why" and that all of this is connected. Systemic racism, poverty, crime, policing... these are all factors that amplify each other and make up the shitstorm the country finds itself in today. Trying, as many of your recent posts do, to reduce it to just "more crime = more police contact = more deaths" ignores a lot, if not the majority, of what has been going on for centuries to the black community.
Again, facts aren't racist. Of course "why" they commit so much more crime is an important question. Surely poverty, which yes, undoubtedly has a lot to do with the legacy of racism in the US is a huge variable. But police doing their jobs and addressing crime where it exists is not racism. That narrative is incorrect. Police of all colors target blacks more in areas with high rates of black crime. Of course black lives matter. Of course all lives matter. Black on black crime is the biggest issue. Not cops addressing the crime.
The "why" is a huge fucking part of it though, tree. Why are crime rates higher? it could be because black people are getting punished a lot more stringently for the same crimes white people commit. Learn about the war on drugs and that could help you a bit here. Crime rates in many of these neighborhoods are often fueled by petty bullshit crimes that shouldnt even be on the fucking radar.
As I said, it's an important question and I don't pretend to know the answer. However, there isn't evidence of an epidemic of police racism.
