Red Mosquito

Your subjective interpretation is wrong! Mine is right!

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:The suicide read has really opened this up in a very powerful way for me. A dignified exploration of the final moments of a life, before a universe that doesn't care but somehow still manages to honor the moment

So, you basically ignore the fact that he's quoting Neil Young in your interp?

What, the yellow moon lyric? I suspect he likes the image.

I don't think he'd just use the exact line "yellow moon on the rise" from the Neil Young song as a repetitive chorus if it was just the image of a yellow moon that he liked.

Don't you think? How do you know?

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:The suicide read has really opened this up in a very powerful way for me. A dignified exploration of the final moments of a life, before a universe that doesn't care but somehow still manages to honor the moment

So, you basically ignore the fact that he's quoting Neil Young in your interp?

What, the yellow moon lyric? I suspect he likes the image.

I don't think he'd just use the exact line "yellow moon on the rise" from the Neil Young song as a repetitive chorus if it was just the image of a yellow moon that he liked.

That is exactly the reason to use that image. It is an evocative panoramic phrase

A. It's an assumption that he is directly referencing "Helpless"
B. It is an assumption that Ed interprets "Helpless" in the manner that Neil Young describes it. Just because that's how Young talked about it doesn't automatically mean that's how anyone else has to, even if he did write it.

harmless wrote:Your subjective interpretation is wrong! Mine is right!

The irony is I'm offering an interpretation just like you, in fact it's similar - the songs about someone dying in some way (bullet being a metaphor or literal) and the afterlife. I also offered insight into other people's interpretations, like those who are convinced it's about suicide. I asked - how do you know? When I did, it seemed like those who said that didn't like the questioning of their POV regarding a song interpretation that they put out there on a forum that is often used to discuss song interpretations. I was really just questioning why you think the way you do because to me it (the suicide stuff) although certainly possible, was never really communicated in the lyrics. It seemed to be potentially transference.


With stip, I felt like his interp he offered was largely ignoring the afterlife aspect (which stems from Neil Young's song Yellow Moon - which is about a beautiful place that the author longs for) - and he sees the direct quote from the Neil Young song as simply being about a "universe that doesn't care but somehow still manages to honor a moment". I don't understand that because I don't think Ed would quote a line from the song then flip it's meaning of one of his idols in totality.

Thejambi wrote:A. It's an assumption that he is directly referencing "Helpless"
B. It is an assumption that Ed interprets "Helpless" in the manner that Neil Young describes it. Just because that's how Young talked about it doesn't automatically mean that's how anyone else has to, even if he did write it.

Jambi - did you ever finish trying to tie all the artwork together?

Thejambi wrote:A. It's an assumption that he is directly referencing "Helpless"
B. It is an assumption that Ed interprets "Helpless" in the manner that Neil Young describes it. Just because that's how Young talked about it doesn't automatically mean that's how anyone else has to, even if he did write it.

They mentioned Neil Young when discussing Yellow Moon in the interviews. I think it was Mike, saying something like Ed's channeling Neil there or something like that.

IlluminEddie wrote:

harmless wrote:Your subjective interpretation is wrong! Mine is right!

The irony is I'm offering an interpretation just like you, in fact it's similar - the songs about someone dying in some way (bullet being a metaphor or literal) and the afterlife. I also offered insight into other people's interpretations, like those who are convinced it's about suicide. I asked - how do you know? When I did, it seemed like those who said that didn't like the questioning of their POV regarding a song interpretation that they put out there on a forum that is often used to discuss song interpretations. I was really just questioning why you think the way you do because to me it (the suicide stuff) although certainly possible, was never really communicated in the lyrics. It seemed to be potentially transference.


With stip, I felt like his interp he offered was largely ignoring the afterlife aspect (which stems from Neil Young's song Yellow Moon - which is about a beautiful place that the author longs for) - and he sees the direct quote from the Neil Young song as simply being about a "universe that doesn't care but somehow still manages to honor a moment". I don't understand that because I don't think Ed would quote a line from the song then flip it's meaning of one of his idols in totality.

But the thing is, the lines that make it sound like suicide were actually quoted to you. You ignored them and continued to say suicide couldn't possibly be anything to do with it, when we'd offered evidence. Nobody knows any of this, anyway.

So fuck it, I'm getting a coffee. Does anybody want one?

EJ wrote:

Thejambi wrote:A. It's an assumption that he is directly referencing "Helpless"
B. It is an assumption that Ed interprets "Helpless" in the manner that Neil Young describes it. Just because that's how Young talked about it doesn't automatically mean that's how anyone else has to, even if he did write it.

Jambi - did you ever finish trying to tie all the artwork together?

i didn't unfortunately.

IlluminEddie wrote:

harmless wrote:Your subjective interpretation is wrong! Mine is right!

The irony is I'm offering an interpretation just like you, in fact it's similar - the songs about someone dying in some way (bullet being a metaphor or literal) and the afterlife. I also offered insight into other people's interpretations, like those who are convinced it's about suicide. I asked - how do you know? When I did, it seemed like those who said that didn't like the questioning of their POV regarding a song interpretation that they put out there on a forum that is often used to discuss song interpretations. I was really just questioning why you think the way you do because to me it (the suicide stuff) although certainly possible, was never really communicated in the lyrics. It seemed to be potentially transference.


With stip, I felt like his interp he offered was largely ignoring the afterlife aspect (which stems from Neil Young's song Yellow Moon - which is about a beautiful place that the author longs for) - and he sees the direct quote from the Neil Young song as simply being about a "universe that doesn't care but somehow still manages to honor a moment". I don't understand that because I don't think Ed would quote a line from the song then flip it's meaning of one of his idols in totality.

I don't see any lyrical connection to an afterlife. I don't see the song being about that. there could be an afterlife (although that runs against a lot of explicit rejection of that idea in other songs). I just don't think it is part of the story being told here.


Regarding helpless, taking an idols work and reinterpreting it seems no more or less likely than a literal reproduction in it.

harmless wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:

harmless wrote:Your subjective interpretation is wrong! Mine is right!

The irony is I'm offering an interpretation just like you, in fact it's similar - the songs about someone dying in some way (bullet being a metaphor or literal) and the afterlife. I also offered insight into other people's interpretations, like those who are convinced it's about suicide. I asked - how do you know? When I did, it seemed like those who said that didn't like the questioning of their POV regarding a song interpretation that they put out there on a forum that is often used to discuss song interpretations. I was really just questioning why you think the way you do because to me it (the suicide stuff) although certainly possible, was never really communicated in the lyrics. It seemed to be potentially transference.


With stip, I felt like his interp he offered was largely ignoring the afterlife aspect (which stems from Neil Young's song Yellow Moon - which is about a beautiful place that the author longs for) - and he sees the direct quote from the Neil Young song as simply being about a "universe that doesn't care but somehow still manages to honor a moment". I don't understand that because I don't think Ed would quote a line from the song then flip it's meaning of one of his idols in totality.

But the thing is, the lines that make it sound like suicide were actually quoted to you. You ignored them and continued to say suicide couldn't possibly be anything to do with it, when we'd offered evidence. Nobody knows any of this, anyway.

So fuck it, I'm getting a coffee. Does anybody want one?

Yeh - you offered a line. I said back that there's nothing in the lines offered to make one know it's suicide. And what I said is true - you have to admit that. The certainty in opinion came from you. I was questioning your certainty because how they die is 100%, undeniably blank in the song. We know there's a gun (literally or metaphorically) and death. That's it.

NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING. GAADAAAAAAFRFFFGGG

I offered you a line suggesting why I thought of suicide. You're now making me consider the real thing. Stop.

IlluminEddie wrote:

harmless wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:

harmless wrote:Your subjective interpretation is wrong! Mine is right!

The irony is I'm offering an interpretation just like you, in fact it's similar - the songs about someone dying in some way (bullet being a metaphor or literal) and the afterlife. I also offered insight into other people's interpretations, like those who are convinced it's about suicide. I asked - how do you know? When I did, it seemed like those who said that didn't like the questioning of their POV regarding a song interpretation that they put out there on a forum that is often used to discuss song interpretations. I was really just questioning why you think the way you do because to me it (the suicide stuff) although certainly possible, was never really communicated in the lyrics. It seemed to be potentially transference.


With stip, I felt like his interp he offered was largely ignoring the afterlife aspect (which stems from Neil Young's song Yellow Moon - which is about a beautiful place that the author longs for) - and he sees the direct quote from the Neil Young song as simply being about a "universe that doesn't care but somehow still manages to honor a moment". I don't understand that because I don't think Ed would quote a line from the song then flip it's meaning of one of his idols in totality.

But the thing is, the lines that make it sound like suicide were actually quoted to you. You ignored them and continued to say suicide couldn't possibly be anything to do with it, when we'd offered evidence. Nobody knows any of this, anyway.

So fuck it, I'm getting a coffee. Does anybody want one?

Yeh - you offered a line. I said back that there's nothing in the lines offered to make one know it's suicide. And what I said is true - you have to admit that. The certainty in opinion came from you. I was questioning your certainty because how they die is 100%, undeniably blank in the song. We know there's a gun (literally or metaphorically) and death. That's it.

Eddie called me to tell me that it is a suicide, and he cleared it with Neil prior to recording

Telegram, actually. Eddie isn't up to phones yet

stip wrote:Telegram, actually. Eddie isn't up to phones yet

stip wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:

harmless wrote:Your subjective interpretation is wrong! Mine is right!

The irony is I'm offering an interpretation just like you, in fact it's similar - the songs about someone dying in some way (bullet being a metaphor or literal) and the afterlife. I also offered insight into other people's interpretations, like those who are convinced it's about suicide. I asked - how do you know? When I did, it seemed like those who said that didn't like the questioning of their POV regarding a song interpretation that they put out there on a forum that is often used to discuss song interpretations. I was really just questioning why you think the way you do because to me it (the suicide stuff) although certainly possible, was never really communicated in the lyrics. It seemed to be potentially transference.


With stip, I felt like his interp he offered was largely ignoring the afterlife aspect (which stems from Neil Young's song Yellow Moon - which is about a beautiful place that the author longs for) - and he sees the direct quote from the Neil Young song as simply being about a "universe that doesn't care but somehow still manages to honor a moment". I don't understand that because I don't think Ed would quote a line from the song then flip it's meaning of one of his idols in totality.

I don't see any lyrical connection to an afterlife. I don't see the song being about that. there could be an afterlife (although that runs against a lot of explicit rejection of that idea in other songs). I just don't think it is part of the story being told here.


Regarding helpless, taking an idols work and reinterpreting it seems no more or less likely than a literal reproduction in it.

Your line "universe that doesn't care but somehow still manages to honor the moment" doesn't really make sense to me. How do you get the universe doesn't care here?

The song helpless is about a place one is fond of. Neil uses the terms yellow moon on the rise in that song, which once again is about a place he longs to go back to. Ed uses those same words 'yellow moon on the rise' here in this song. You believe it's about a suicide, others say it's simply death. We all agree it's about death in some way. To say Ed decided to go and directly quote Neil's song (about a happy place) and then use that exact quote "yellow moon on the rise" as a chorus in a song and also says "tonight to the moon I go" and "joins the parade", when the song is ONLY about death seems off to me.

Maybe you don't believe in the afterlife, maybe that's why you don't want to read the lyrics in that way? If so, fair enough. But, your logic doesn't really add up when you look at the song lyrics in their entirety AND incorporate the meaning within Neil's song too. That's why I asked the original question.

harmless wrote:NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING. GAADAAAAAAFRFFFGGG

I offered you a line suggesting why I thought of suicide. You're now making me consider the real thing. Stop.

That's why I brought up transference. Maybe you associate that act with a lot of their music and therefore, decided it was apt in this song too. Because the line says nothing about that.

At the end of the day, you are entitled to your opinion, but on a rock band's board to share your interpretive opinion, then get upset when someone says there's nothing in the song to prove your take's correct and it's a leap, then try to prove the leap's correct again with a line that has no evidence you were right, is kinda weird. That's all.

It's great that you interpret the song the way you do.
I personally don't get the afterlife from it. [edit] For me -The lyrics clearly represent the idea of someone trying to get away and find that happy place and fails. The person tries to escape to te metaphorical moon ( peace, tranquility, other world) but like many falls and crashes back to earth ( the pain, sorrow, reality).

I think you're giving Neil Young's song way too much authorial voice in this song.

I don't believe in the afterlife but I'm also not feeling suicidal. And a few songs on this record seem to challenge the idea of something like an afterlife. So I remain skeptical about that interpretation. I feel pretty confident about the suicide. Could the rest be about an afterlife? Sure, why not? that's not a crazy interpretation or anything.

Regarding the universe not caring--there's a sadness in the music and presentation, a sense of the enormity of it all (which dwarfs the significance of the end of one life). The lyrics seem to speak to the insignificance of the author (we can feel the earth vibrate/changing shape as we all do under its gaze/where we stop no one knows)

The sky growing dark with fallen stars speaks to another life ending, but there's not a moment of rebirth. The yellow moon is already out. And the rest of the imagery in that verse speaks to the finality of death, and the inadequacy of the steps we take to mark it.

The previous verse is one of the most powerful descriptions of suicide I can recall seeing in a song.

An echo that rings
A bullet unchained
One life, one grave
Joins the parade

I mean he describes the sound of a gunshot and says, literally, that a bullet has just been fired. It's beautifully written, but pretty damn clear.


However, the yellow moon rising seems, at the same time, to be acknowledging this person's existence. We'll give you this one beautiful moment to recognize, even honor, this moment. The way the music swells at all the right places. The way the song demands a response from the universe--even if it's just one death in the grand totality of everything it still requires that someone bear witness (especially the way the vocals swell during the bridge). And so the moon answers. It's the story I hear being told here.

stip wrote:I think you're giving Neil Young's song way too much authorial voice in this song.

I didn't give Neil Young's song an authorial voice, so to speak. I had no idea the song even existed. Mike McCready said it in an interview while talking about THIS song. Then I looked at both after hearing this and remembering that. The fact that it's the EXACT line used in this song and that song, and one written the Ed's hero, makes it "defined" in my opinion.