Feminism

[harmless]

"I feel like I'm one of the biggest feminists in the world because I tell women not to be scared of anything." - Miley.


Discuss.

So do rapists.

[Norah]

"I feel like I'm one of the biggest feminists in the world because I tell women not to be scared of anything." - Miley.


Discuss.

So do rapists.

So did Hitler!

[harmless]

"I feel like I'm one of the biggest feminists in the world because I tell women not to be scared of anything." - Miley.


Discuss.

So do rapists.

So did Hitler!

So does the Devil.

[malice]

"I feel like I'm one of the biggest feminists in the world because I tell women not to be scared of anything." - Miley.


Discuss.

gen y feminism is pretty great, huh?

[harmless]

[malice]

just wait til that bitch wakes up and is 40, divorced twice, tits sagging, and can't figure out what the hell happened to her career, we'll see what scares her then.

[stip]

An open letter to Red Mosquito:

Dear Red Mosquito,

I understand that some of you are wondering whether or not Miley Cyrus' foray into being an obnoxious rich late teens dipshit counts as an act of female emancipation, primarily because Cyrus is to young and too rich to experience emotions like embarrassment, regret, and, although not strictly speaking an emotion, good judgement . But all that aside there is a serious question to be asked here.

Feminism is not about being allowed to do whatever you feel like it because you feel like it. That's called being 4. It is also not allowing women to make whatever sort of 'choices' they want. That's the way capitalism has bastardized the concept to defang it and make some money off of it (see also the curious transformation of freedom into options in the marketplace--the United States was freeer than the Soviet Union because we can stock an entire supermarket shelf with 30 varieties of Mountain Dew).

Feminism is in the end about challenging power--allowing women to author their own decisions on the basis of the rules they chose to adopt, reflecting the values they wish to embrace. So in order to figure out if Miley Cyrus is a feminist we need to figure out whether or not the choices she is making reflect her own emancipated interests, rather than playing a role prescribed to her by a male dominated society. Is she simply a good dog being rewarded with nice treats for doing a clever trick. I suspect it is the later, but who can say for sure?

More interestingly is the possibility that she could be authentically making her own choices and still harming women. When Miley Cyrus is rewarded for getting naked she gets millions of dollars. She is a celebrity. And that money grants her power and independence. But is she also helping to perpetuate the objectification of women as objects which does real harm to women much further down the chain. The stripper at the dive bar, the girl who has to pose for some website to pay her rent, or who needs to prostitute herself to get money for school, food, etc. Does it help legitimate rape culture? Does it devalue women who lack the resources that enable them to not care what other people think about them. If a different woman did what she did and put it on Facebook what is going to happen to her when an employer sees it? Is Miley Cyrus acting how she acts going to open up new avenues for Malice or Sarah or someone else? Probably not.

That's the issue. Miley Cyrus will be fine controlling for the possibility of celebrity self-destruction. But she could still be helping to reinforce images and expectations about women that are harmful to those weaker then her.

It's possible that 20 years ago, when you could make a more credible argument that women's sexuality was taboo, that what she was doing was helping to push back against other destructive social taboos. But she's not Madonna. There's nothing shocking, interesting, or transgressive about this anymore. See also: Lady Gaga.

When someone like Amanda Palmer does this kind of stuff it might be a bit different. She is not a conventional sex object. There is also a self-conscious political agenda behind what she does. She uses nudity to challenge certain cultural and artistic norms and expectations. It's still less impressive than it it would have been pre Madonna, but at least there is an ideology behind it. Miley Cyrus is just the version of Girls Gone Wild that People magazine chooses to cover.


The United States is not afghanistan. Nor is it 30 years ago. If Miley Cyrus wants to help women she can donate money to political groups that fight for equal pay, reproductive rights, better family leave and fleixible workplace laws. Things that impact the lives of women who are not also multi millionaires.
real feminism

[stip]

By the way, I'm not saying she shouldn't do what she's doing. If I found her much less annoying and if she was as attractive as, say, the women in the Blurred Lines video the part of me that finds naked women to be pretty great would be thrilled she is doing this.

Just don't pretend you're helping women in the process.

[Sarah.]

Miley represents a certain kind of white feminism that a friend of mine calls fauxminism and that's fine. For her. She doesn't really represent me or any of the women (especially WoC) that I know.

[broken iris]

"I feel like I'm one of the biggest feminists in the world because I tell women not to be scared of anything." - Miley.


Discuss.

gen y feminism is pretty great, huh?

For old guys sitting in front of their computers in their parent's basements with their pants around their ankles, it is.


I have no issues with Miley, she is what she is, but it disappoints me to see powerful and influential young women confuse not being ashamed of your sexuality (which she should have no reason to be) with peddling it for tabloid headlines.

[malice]

"I feel like I'm one of the biggest feminists in the world because I tell women not to be scared of anything." - Miley.


Discuss.

gen y feminism is pretty great, huh?

For old guys sitting in front of their computers in their parent's basements with their pants around their ankles, it is.


I have no issues with Miley, she is what she is, but it disappoints me to see powerful and influential young women confuse not being ashamed of your sexuality (which she should have no reason to be) with peddling it for tabloid headlines.

not to be a complete devil's advocate, but Marilyn Monroe was a powerful and influential young woman (relatively young, given the time) that was not ashamed of her sexuality either, but never tried to push that as feminism - which wasn't much of an articulated concept around then either - although had some existence in the psyche of American women anyway.

I find Miley Cyrus to be dull and unoriginal in that light as a result. Plus I admit, much as I love hanging out with this group of gen-y RMers - I guess almost all of them being guys so whatever, I am still not immune to the feeling that these young women today don't know shit yet, and will be in for a heap of disillusionment as they get older due to their 'we know pretty much everything, and are smrtr than u, old women' vibe.

I've said it before about this generation of 20-somethings - they seem to feel every thought is an epiphany which has never been arrived at before by anyone. so they automatically deserve respect and admiration for making otherwise obvious or outrageous pronouncements to the rest of the world.

malice's disclaimer: I do not mean to say I think all people of this age group are this way, but the ones who are famous, such as Cyrus, aren't doing this generation any favors (men and women both) by their behavior or the way they choose to use their fame. please don't all attack me, current RMers - I'm not trying to start a fight, just generalizing for the sake of my own laziness and desire to simplify the complex set of thoughts I have surrounding this topic. kthx

[Sarah.]

Sharing this because it made me laugh. Course that might just be the wine..

http://the-toast.net/2013/11/15/empower ... e-heroine/

[stip]

“I can hold my own in the bedroom and the boardroom,” she said to no one, and to everyone. “You should never underestimate me.” She took off her blonde ponytail and shook her hair loose; there was another blonde ponytail underneath it.

[BurtReynolds]

Is that the new Michelle Rodriguez movie?

[Sarah.]

Oh also, I got called a cunt and unfollowed by an MRA on twitter for having the word intersectional in my bio, so I'm counting that as a win today. He tweeted me so I'd be sure to notice him unfollowing me. Could you Imagine being that desperate to matter to someone?

[Jorge]

Oh also, I got called a cunt and unfollowed by an MRA on twitter for having the word intersectional in my bio, so I'm counting that as a win today. He tweeted me so I'd be sure to notice him unfollowing me. Could you Imagine being that desperate to matter to someone?

I saw that. I've noticed that guy before. He's an angry man, constantly hounding people with abusive tweets. I believe he's also directing a documentary on misandry, which promises to be a laugh-and-a-half. Why was he following you in the first place?

[Jorge]

scratch that, I know why. He's one of those people who follow accounts massively in the hope of getting a follow-back.

[Sarah.]

Oh also, I got called a cunt and unfollowed by an MRA on twitter for having the word intersectional in my bio, so I'm counting that as a win today. He tweeted me so I'd be sure to notice him unfollowing me. Could you Imagine being that desperate to matter to someone?

I saw that. I've noticed that guy before. He's an angry man, constantly hounding people with abusive tweets. I believe he's also directing a documentary on misandry, which promises to be a laugh-and-a-half. Why was he following you in the first place?

He follows a lot of women. So he can tell us how we're doing it wrong. If I remember rightly he started following me because he was bullying a friend and me and another friend asked him to back off. He then started following all of the women. To be perfectly honest I'd forgotten he was even following me in the first place, so getting that tweet really made me giggle.

[Sarah.]

Actually, I remember now. It was an argument about 'reverse racism'. And then he called us all whores and followed all three of us. The guy is a class act.

[surfndestroy]

An open letter to Red Mosquito:

Dear Red Mosquito,

I understand that some of you are wondering whether or not Miley Cyrus' foray into being an obnoxious rich late teens dipshit counts as an act of female emancipation, primarily because Cyrus is to young and too rich to experience emotions like embarrassment, regret, and, although not strictly speaking an emotion, good judgement . But all that aside there is a serious question to be asked here.

Feminism is not about being allowed to do whatever you feel like it because you feel like it. That's called being 4. It is also not allowing women to make whatever sort of 'choices' they want. That's the way capitalism has bastardized the concept to defang it and make some money off of it (see also the curious transformation of freedom into options in the marketplace--the United States was freeer than the Soviet Union because we can stock an entire supermarket shelf with 30 varieties of Mountain Dew).

Feminism is in the end about challenging power--allowing women to author their own decisions on the basis of the rules they chose to adopt, reflecting the values they wish to embrace. So in order to figure out if Miley Cyrus is a feminist we need to figure out whether or not the choices she is making reflect her own emancipated interests, rather than playing a role prescribed to her by a male dominated society. Is she simply a good dog being rewarded with nice treats for doing a clever trick. I suspect it is the later, but who can say for sure?

More interestingly is the possibility that she could be authentically making her own choices and still harming women. When Miley Cyrus is rewarded for getting naked she gets millions of dollars. She is a celebrity. And that money grants her power and independence. But is she also helping to perpetuate the objectification of women as objects which does real harm to women much further down the chain. The stripper at the dive bar, the girl who has to pose for some website to pay her rent, or who needs to prostitute herself to get money for school, food, etc. Does it help legitimate rape culture? Does it devalue women who lack the resources that enable them to not care what other people think about them. If a different woman did what she did and put it on Facebook what is going to happen to her when an employer sees it? Is Miley Cyrus acting how she acts going to open up new avenues for Malice or Sarah or someone else? Probably not.

That's the issue. Miley Cyrus will be fine controlling for the possibility of celebrity self-destruction. But she could still be helping to reinforce images and expectations about women that are harmful to those weaker then her.

It's possible that 20 years ago, when you could make a more credible argument that women's sexuality was taboo, that what she was doing was helping to push back against other destructive social taboos. But she's not Madonna. There's nothing shocking, interesting, or transgressive about this anymore. See also: Lady Gaga.

When someone like Amanda Palmer does this kind of stuff it might be a bit different. She is not a conventional sex object. There is also a self-conscious political agenda behind what she does. She uses nudity to challenge certain cultural and artistic norms and expectations. It's still less impressive than it it would have been pre Madonna, but at least there is an ideology behind it. Miley Cyrus is just the version of Girls Gone Wild that People magazine chooses to cover.


The United States is not afghanistan. Nor is it 30 years ago. If Miley Cyrus wants to help women she can donate money to political groups that fight for equal pay, reproductive rights, better family leave and fleixible workplace laws. Things that impact the lives of women who are not also multi millionaires.
real feminism

Stip, your ability to disenfranchise the individual and victimize groups of people is unparalleled. You are a wold champion genderist.

First, who are you to tell Miley how she should help people? Or that she is harming people? Or to think thank a person can't be a millionaire and a real feminist.

Second, the way you victimize groups of people is beyond belief. You denigrate them while acting like you are looking out for their interests. Have you ever befriended any strippers? Treated them like real people and and just gotten to know them? Maybe even get your hands dirty and hang out with them? Because I think if you did you would not look down on them and your circumstances like you do. I have been lucky enough to have been friends with a handful of strippers. Lucky enough to know them as real people and close enough to ask them questions about their career choices. I can tell you that none of them felt exploited and a couple of them felt they exploited mens needs for profit. A couple of them were even in my university program. I know, you are shocked, a stripper can have agency and a brain. You completely disempower them by your choice of words "has to", "needs to". I really think you should get to know people before you cast such damning judgement on them. You should step out of your ivory tower and get to know these people you cast judgement on and think so little of, you will be surprised be the real stories and how they differ from your misogynistic stereotyping.

You say Miley is harming people but you're the one disempowering them. You're the one casting judgement. If Miley is doing harm, what are you doing?