Red Mosquito

He used to get so pissed when that thing started. He would take swings at guys, it was pretty funny.

It was great when Miguel Cabrera did that to him during a game this year and also got a shot to the nuts.

Even if Beltre retired now, I think he should be a no-doubt Hall of Famer. He's basically Scott Rolen with more home runs and hits. Voters tend to undervalue defence, though, so he may need a couple years to get to some big milestones (I think a lot of people will automatically tie him to steroids, too, because of his big home run season in 2004, which is stupid).

philpritchard wrote:Even if Beltre retired now, I think he should be a no-doubt Hall of Famer. He's basically Scott Rolen with more home runs and hits. Voters tend to undervalue defence, though, so he may need a couple years to get to some big milestones (I think a lot of people will automatically tie him to steroids, too, because of his big home run season in 2004, which is stupid).

Agreed 100%.

I think Vizquel is a hall of famer. Not amazing hitting stats but probably the second best defensive SS ever.

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

philpritchard wrote:Even if Beltre retired now, I think he should be a no-doubt Hall of Famer. He's basically Scott Rolen with more home runs and hits. Voters tend to undervalue defence, though, so he may need a couple years to get to some big milestones (I think a lot of people will automatically tie him to steroids, too, because of his big home run season in 2004, which is stupid).

Agreed 100%.

I think Vizquel is a hall of famer. Not amazing hitting stats but probably the second best defensive SS ever.

He's pretty borderline for me. He was actually a pretty bad hitter the majority of his career. At his peak, Ozzie smith strung together a handful of seasons where he was a league-average hitter or better with that spectacular defense. In Vizquel's entire career, he was only ever a league-average hitter twice. The only reason Vizquel will have much of a shot is because he stuck around for five years once he became essentially useless and tacked on an extra 300 or so hits. Now people can look at his stats and say "Well, he didn't get 3000 hits, but he was so close!"

I don't think he should be in.

I don't think there's a debate that Beltre is a HOFer, is there?

Chris_H_2 wrote:I don't think there's a debate that Beltre is a HOFer, is there?

There shouldn't be, but as I said, I think a lot of what he's done tends to get overlooked by casual fans and dumbass voters.

Chris_H_2 wrote:I don't think there's a debate that Beltre is a HOFer, is there?

http://forums.theskyiscrape.com/viewtop ... 0&start=60

Bammer wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:I don't think there's a debate that Beltre is a HOFer, is there?

http://forums.theskyiscrape.com/viewtop ... 0&start=60

Given the lack of responses, I would say the answer is "no."

philpritchard wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

philpritchard wrote:Even if Beltre retired now, I think he should be a no-doubt Hall of Famer. He's basically Scott Rolen with more home runs and hits. Voters tend to undervalue defence, though, so he may need a couple years to get to some big milestones (I think a lot of people will automatically tie him to steroids, too, because of his big home run season in 2004, which is stupid).

Agreed 100%.

I think Vizquel is a hall of famer. Not amazing hitting stats but probably the second best defensive SS ever.

He's pretty borderline for me. He was actually a pretty bad hitter the majority of his career. At his peak, Ozzie smith strung together a handful of seasons where he was a league-average hitter or better with that spectacular defense. In Vizquel's entire career, he was only ever a league-average hitter twice. The only reason Vizquel will have much of a shot is because he stuck around for five years once he became essentially useless and tacked on an extra 300 or so hits. Now people can look at his stats and say "Well, he didn't get 3000 hits, but he was so close!"

I don't think he should be in.

I lean towards Vizquel getting in, but I agree with what you said about sticking around to pad numbers. I don't think guys should be rewarded for that.

If Alan Trammell can't get in, there's no way on God's green Earth that Vizquel should even get close enough to sniff the HOF.

Chris_H_2 wrote:If Alan Trammell can't get in, there's no way on God's green Earth that Vizquel should even get close enough to sniff the HOF.

I'm surprised with Trammell. Very underrated and his stats are similar to Barry Larkin. There wasn't a better all around SS in the 1980's.

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:If Alan Trammell can't get in, there's no way on God's green Earth that Vizquel should even get close enough to sniff the HOF.

I'm surprised with Trammell. Very underrated and his stats are similar to Barry Larkin. There wasn't a better all around SS in the 1980's.

The problem is writers penalize him for playing in the same decade as Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken, and think because he wasn't better defensively than Smith or offensively than Ripken, he was somehow an inferior player not deserving of the HOF. The comparisons are inapt, and he should be evaluated against all shortstops, not just those 2.

I think both Trammell and Vizquel should be in.

Chris_H_2 wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

Chris_H_2 wrote:If Alan Trammell can't get in, there's no way on God's green Earth that Vizquel should even get close enough to sniff the HOF.

I'm surprised with Trammell. Very underrated and his stats are similar to Barry Larkin. There wasn't a better all around SS in the 1980's.

The problem is writers penalize him for playing in the same decade as Ozzie Smith and Cal Ripken, and think because he wasn't better defensively than Smith or offensively than Ripken, he was somehow an inferior player not deserving of the HOF. The comparisons are inapt, and he should be evaluated against all shortstops, not just those 2.

Agreed. It's weird. Pretty sure his WAR is very similar to Jeter.

numbers wrote:I think both Trammell and Vizquel should be in.

Vizquel is one of the top 5 defensive players I have ever seen at any position.

From an advanced stats perspective... Omar Vizquel's WAR has him ranked as the 34th best SS of all time, tied with Miguel Tejada, half a win ahead of Nomar Garciaparra despite more than twice as many games, and just behind guys like Julio Franco, Tony Fernandez and Jim Fregosi.

philpritchard wrote:From an advanced stats perspective... Omar Vizquel's WAR has him ranked as the 34th best SS of all time, tied with Miguel Tejada, half a win ahead of Nomar Garciaparra despite more than twice as many games, and just behind guys like Julio Franco, Tony Fernandez and Jim Fregosi.

Most of Franco's best years were at 2B and 1B (strike year) though. Vizquel is 10th all time in defensive WAR.

Decided to go ahead rank the top 5 defensive players I have seen....

1. Ozzie Smith
2. Pudge Rodriguez
3. Andruw Jones
4. Omar Vizquel
5. Scott Rolen

Beltre and Yadi Molina honorable mention

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

philpritchard wrote:From an advanced stats perspective... Omar Vizquel's WAR has him ranked as the 34th best SS of all time, tied with Miguel Tejada, half a win ahead of Nomar Garciaparra despite more than twice as many games, and just behind guys like Julio Franco, Tony Fernandez and Jim Fregosi.

Most of Franco's best years were at 2B and 1B (strike year) though. Vizquel is 10th all time in defensive WAR.

Decided to go ahead rank the top 5 defensive players I have seen....

1. Ozzie Smith
2. Pudge Rodriguez
3. Andruw Jones
4. Omar Vizquel
5. Scott Rolen

Beltre and Yadi Molina honorable mention

Tim Raines was a very, very good hitter and the second best base stealer we've ever seen, yet he couldn't get in. Now imagine if, instead of being a well-above average hitter, Raines was a well-below average hitter with the same stolen base numbers. Instead of being a borderline guy, he would have no support whatsoever.

That's kind of how I see Vizquel's candidacy.

The fact that Tim Raines isn't in the HOF is another joke.