Red Mosquito

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

philpritchard wrote:From an advanced stats perspective... Omar Vizquel's WAR has him ranked as the 34th best SS of all time, tied with Miguel Tejada, half a win ahead of Nomar Garciaparra despite more than twice as many games, and just behind guys like Julio Franco, Tony Fernandez and Jim Fregosi.

Most of Franco's best years were at 2B and 1B (strike year) though. Vizquel is 10th all time in defensive WAR.

Decided to go ahead rank the top 5 defensive players I have seen....

1. Ozzie Smith
2. Pudge Rodriguez
3. Andruw Jones
4. Omar Vizquel
5. Scott Rolen

Beltre and Yadi Molina honorable mention

also Andrelton Simmons

Electromatic wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

philpritchard wrote:From an advanced stats perspective... Omar Vizquel's WAR has him ranked as the 34th best SS of all time, tied with Miguel Tejada, half a win ahead of Nomar Garciaparra despite more than twice as many games, and just behind guys like Julio Franco, Tony Fernandez and Jim Fregosi.

Most of Franco's best years were at 2B and 1B (strike year) though. Vizquel is 10th all time in defensive WAR.

Decided to go ahead rank the top 5 defensive players I have seen....

1. Ozzie Smith
2. Pudge Rodriguez
3. Andruw Jones
4. Omar Vizquel
5. Scott Rolen

Beltre and Yadi Molina honorable mention

also Andrelton Simmons

Another couple years and he is probably right there. Machado as well.

Chris_H_2 wrote:The fact that Tim Raines isn't in the HOF is another joke.

This.

I wonder if it's spending the bulk of his best years in Montreal that hurts him? Maybe that is what hurt Dawson as well? Who knows.

The only real question about Omar Vizquel and the Hall Of Fame is: Which Mariners logo do they put on his hat for his bust?

Lou Whitaker should be in as much as Tram or Raines.

And all 3 well above Omar.

No on Vizquel.

If you're putting someone in based solely on defense, they have to be Ozzie Smith level, and Omar was not.

Kenny Lofton is more deserving than Vizquel.

Joesanity wrote:No on Vizquel.

If you're putting someone in based solely on defense, they have to be Ozzie Smith level, and Omar was not.

Kenny Lofton is more deserving than Vizquel.

Kenny Lofton is the epitome of a borderline candidate. He's one of those candidates where I would probably flip-flop back and forth and wouldn't really care whether or not he gets in.

I hate how little support Larry Walker has had. There's no question to me that he should be in.

Ummm...wrong thread guys. But while we're here:

Edgar Martinez?

Edgar has always been the ultimate borderline guy for me.

Joesanity wrote:No on Vizquel.

If you're putting someone in based solely on defense, they have to be Ozzie Smith level, and Omar was not.

Kenny Lofton is more deserving than Vizquel.

Ozzie had 91.7% of hall of fame votes his first year on the ballot. I don't think he is THAT much better than Ozzie at SS. Better yes but not by a large margin. Omar is easily a top 5 SS all time with the glove is just a step or two behind Ozzie defensively. Again, Omar is 10th all time in defensive WAR. I think Omar will get in but it will be a long time. Maybe his 10-12th year on the ballot. You can't keep a guy with 2877 hits and 11 gold gloves at a premium defensive position out of the hall. Just my 2 cents. Nobody was in Omar's league defensively when he was in his prime. In Ozzie's prime Trammel, Barry Larkin, Tony Fernandez and Cal were pretty damn good as well. In Omar's prime who was in Omar's league (no pun) defensively? Jeter? No. ARod? No way. Renteria? Ugh not so much. Maybe Rey Ordonez just for a few years but he couldn't hit water if he fell out of a boat. Omar was on another level at SS.

Lofton's defensive WAR all time is behind Devon White's. He was not a better CF than Vizquel was a SS. No way.

Bammer wrote:Ummm...wrong thread guys. But while we're here:

Edgar Martinez?

Yes I think Edgar makes it. It's kind of alarming that his % of votes went down so much this year from last year but I think eventually he will get in. Some encouraging numbers....

Edgar's career WAR is higher than Ernie Banks, Willie McCovey, and Dave Winfield who were no brainers for the hall. Edgar's OPS+ is higher than Harmon Killebrew, Reggie Jackson, or Alex Rodriguez. Edgar had more adjusted batting runs than Yastrzemski in more than 5,000 fewer plate appearances and more than Tony Perez and Johnny Bench.... combined.

numbers wrote:Edgar has always been the ultimate borderline guy for me.

Not playing a position hurts him for sure. It shouldn't he was that good of a hitter. It shouldn't hurt big Papi either. Different situation with 3 rings and better power numbers but you see what I'm saying. Molitor played a lot of games as a DH and had no trouble getting in. He was nowhere near a hall of famer when he switched to DH full time his last couple years in Milwaukee.

Wasn't Edgar atrocious in the field and that's why he became a DH? I think that's what's different between him and Papi/molitor.

numbers wrote:Wasn't Edgar atrocious in the field and that's why he became a DH? I think that's what's different between him and Papi/molitor.

I don't remember. I think he was ok at 3rd. I think it was because he kept getting hurt. He missed most of 1993.

I think that if Ortiz gets to 500 HR he should be in. I am very biased, though.

Lofton wasn't as good defensively as Vizquel, but he was actually a really good hitter.

philpritchard wrote:Lofton wasn't as good defensively as Vizquel, but he was actually a really good hitter.

In a very good hitters era though.

philpritchard wrote:Lofton wasn't as good defensively as Vizquel, but he was actually a really good hitter.

The first half of his career he was really good. Something about Cleveland he was awesome there. Everywhere else? Yikes. Average at best. He was fun to watch though. Especially early in his career.

numbers wrote:I think that if Ortiz gets to 500 HR he should be in. I am very biased, though.

Hall of famer. Without question in my mind. Those post season heroics (ALCS and World Series MVP), 3 rings, 9 all star games, etc. He should get to 500 next year. First ballot in my mind.

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

philpritchard wrote:Lofton wasn't as good defensively as Vizquel, but he was actually a really good hitter.

The first half of his career he was really good. Something about Cleveland he was awesome there. Everywhere else? Yikes. Average at best. He was fun to watch though. Especially early in his career.

wRC+ is adjusted for park and era and league to compare different players. 100 is average. Lofton was 100 or better 15 times and lower twice. Vizquel was 100 or better twice in... what... 23 seasons? Vizquel's career total was 83. Lofton's worst full season was 90. Lofton's career total was 109. Vizquel's best season was 111.

Like I said... Lofton wasn't a great hitter, but he was above average, even compares to the all-offense era he played in. Vizquel was well below average.

philpritchard wrote:

BigRedLedbetter wrote:

philpritchard wrote:Lofton wasn't as good defensively as Vizquel, but he was actually a really good hitter.

The first half of his career he was really good. Something about Cleveland he was awesome there. Everywhere else? Yikes. Average at best. He was fun to watch though. Especially early in his career.

wRC+ is adjusted for park and era and league to compare different players. 100 is average. Lofton was 100 or better 15 times and lower twice. Vizquel was 100 or better twice in... what... 23 seasons? Vizquel's career total was 83. Lofton's worst full season was 90. Lofton's career total was 109. Vizquel's best season was 111.

Like I said... Lofton wasn't a great hitter, but he was above average, even compares to the all-offense era he played in. Vizquel was well below average.

It's tough to compare a player like Lofton and Vizquel. Two totally different players and positions and resumes. No way Vizquel is a better hitter than Lofton but that isn't the point. Vizquel was probably as good of a hitter (if not better) as Ozzie Smith and Luis Aparicio and they are in the hall and got in very easily. Omar is pretty close to Ozzie with the glove and much better than Luis Aparicio. That being said Omar is probably a hall of famer. The more I think about it the more I don't think it will take long.

It's much tougher to standout and ultimately make the hall as an outfielder. Hence the 3.2% for his first year on the ballot. Which yes was way low. Hell, Tim Raines and struggling to get in and no disrespect to Lofton but he is no Tim Raines is is one of the top 5 leadoff hitters of all time. Lofton had a really nice career and I really liked Kenny Lofton as a player. Let's say he had 2-3 more great years (or instead of 2-3 of his average years), a few more gold gloves and/or a ring and he might have a shot.

It's crazy to think The Astros traded Lofton. Imagine a 1-2-3 of Lofton, Biggio, Bagwell in the early-mid 90's. Fuck!