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Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 3:47 pm
by Malloy
tragabigzanda wrote:Malloy wrote:epilogue wrote:Malloy wrote:am i wrong to collapse albini and bourdain into the same dude
yes
describe albini and describe bourdain.
i see two highly cynical, highly independent, smart dudes w lots of niche success which they built into commercial success, w fairly self-contradictory political instincts, a penchant for cruelty, to themselves and others, an inability to suffer fools, people who are obsessed w process.
I’ll push back on “Albini had commercial success.” He’s actively rejected it; all his financial success is still very niche, and generally grounded in an anti-capitalist mindset.
no one gets to operate outside of the market. the "anti-capitalist mindset", which is undermined by actions necessary to maintain one's position in the market, in every case makes for thin gruel.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 3:59 pm
by Malloy
Malloy wrote:tragabigzanda wrote:Malloy wrote:epilogue wrote:Malloy wrote:am i wrong to collapse albini and bourdain into the same dude
yes
describe albini and describe bourdain.
i see two highly cynical, highly independent, smart dudes w lots of niche success which they built into commercial success, w fairly self-contradictory political instincts, a penchant for cruelty, to themselves and others, an inability to suffer fools, people who are obsessed w process.
I’ll push back on “Albini had commercial success.” He’s actively rejected it; all his financial success is still very niche, and generally grounded in an anti-capitalist mindset.
no one gets to operate outside of the market. the "anti-capitalist mindset", which is undermined by actions necessary to maintain one's position in the market, in every case makes for thin gruel.
having said that, both of these guys seemed way more interested in maximising creative autonomy, preserving their particular approaches to craft & technique, than they were in maximising profit.
another consonance.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 4:19 pm
by Anders
Malloy wrote:Anders wrote:After reading this I can't tell them apart.
one of those descriptions makes no attempt at a qualitative assessment of personality, while the other does, even if it's only a few sentences.
i'm not saying they have the same cv, which is all these two texts help establish.
the two descriptions you cite are as useful to understanding both guys as dividing one's attention while watching a movie. at best, you get a partial understanding. at worst, misunderstanding becomes fact.
One dedicated his life to food, people and the human condition, the other is a musician, music producer, crusader of lost causes, with a long history of being an opinionated chode.
To disniss Bourdain’s career and love of food as his cv, makes no sense. It is a large part of who he was.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 4:31 pm
by Jorge
Malloy wrote:
the two descriptions you cite are as useful to understanding both guys as dividing one's attention while watching a movie. at best, you get a partial understanding. at worst, misunderstanding becomes fact.
DAMN
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 4:37 pm
by tragabigzanda
Steve Albini wrote:Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 4:37 pm
by Anders
Jorge wrote:Malloy wrote:
the two descriptions you cite are as useful to understanding both guys as dividing one's attention while watching a movie. at best, you get a partial understanding. at worst, misunderstanding becomes fact.
DAMN
That’s a bit of a tired cliche here now, but rather funny in the context of completely misunderstanding who he is talking about in the rest of his post.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 4:42 pm
by BurtReynolds
Is this one of those Gen X things I don't care about?
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 4:43 pm
by Anders
No.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 4:51 pm
by epilogue
Malloy wrote:epilogue wrote:Malloy wrote:Malloy wrote:epilogue wrote:Malloy wrote:am i wrong to collapse albini and bourdain into the same dude
yes
describe albini and describe bourdain.
i see two highly cynical, highly independent, smart dudes w lots of niche success which they built into commercial success, w fairly self-contradictory political instincts, a penchant for cruelty, to themselves and others, an inability to suffer fools, people who are obsessed w process.
my instinct is that you like bourdain and dislike the kinds of people who dislike albini. but i gotta say, i dont see much distance between any of them.
You think I dislike people who dislike Albini?
that's what I wrote.
as I see it you have three options.
1. make an argument on why they are dissimilar, which could include responding to mine.
2. tell me why I'm mistaken that you in fact like or are agnostic re: self-consciously contrarian types, which I've said bourdain and albini are. my thinking is because you've never really presented in this overwhelming negative way (always affirmation, sincerity and kindness with you), you may not have much patience for it.
3. ignore what I've written, or answer a question with a question
I hope my response didn't come off as flippant or frustrating. I apologize if that's the case. I just though it was curious that you said "someone who likes Bourdain and doesn't like people who like Albini" instead of "someone who likes Bourdain but doesn't like Albini," which is what I expected as I was reading the sentence. Then I had to double check it several times and I still wasn't sure what you meant by that. So I was making sure you wrote what you meant to write and that I read it correctly.
Thank you for clarifying what you meant. Makes total sense (and thank you for the kind words!)
Honestly, I don't have a dog in this fight. Bourdain still does mean a lot to me. The man helped shape my worldview in profound ways (if there is anything affirming or sincere about me, I owe at least part of that to Anthony Bourdain). Painting him as only a contrarian or just an asshole is limiting and I think a tad unfair -- also, "self-consciously contrarian" isn't really how Bourdain came across to me; not saying you're wrong per se, just that a ton of other qualities/descriptors come to mind way before that and I would say he's earned to be remembered for those qualities just as much if not more.
But I also don't know that defending my own personal experiences of him does much good in this discussion. I'm happy to share more, but it's not really qualitative or data driven. It's all anecdotal. I'm sure plenty of people here, for example, lump me in with other RMers whom I can't stand. Perhaps they say that me and ____ are the same guy. And I would, perhaps, find that to be categorically false regardless of any personal experiences of me that the person making the comparison has/had. Both can be true: we are the same guy and we are nothing alike.
I don't know much about Albini. I haven't followed his career with any great enthusiasm or curiosity. I've listened to some of the albums he's produced. I've liked many of them. I 've listened to some Shellac. It wasn't for me. And I think Trag is the only person I "know" who is an Albini stan. And I like trag. So, I can't say that I dislike people who like him. Perhaps agnosticism is the right answer if we're trying to be totally fair. The few tweets or articles/interviews I've read with or about Albini do paint him as insufferable, a self-conscious contrarian, and an asshole. But a lot of people feel that way about Bourdain. Which is why we're here now, right?
Lastly, just to clarify, my initial response ("yes" -- with no further explanation) wasn't meant as a contradiction as much as just a funny little comment. It's probably always unwise to lump two people together into one. Because we're all different (ba-dum-cha!) I wasn't trying to be combinative or evasive. I was aiming for wry or whimsical.
Hope that's somewhat helpful.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 4:52 pm
by epilogue
Malloy wrote:Malloy wrote:tragabigzanda wrote:Malloy wrote:epilogue wrote:Malloy wrote:am i wrong to collapse albini and bourdain into the same dude
yes
describe albini and describe bourdain.
i see two highly cynical, highly independent, smart dudes w lots of niche success which they built into commercial success, w fairly self-contradictory political instincts, a penchant for cruelty, to themselves and others, an inability to suffer fools, people who are obsessed w process.
I’ll push back on “Albini had commercial success.” He’s actively rejected it; all his financial success is still very niche, and generally grounded in an anti-capitalist mindset.
no one gets to operate outside of the market. the "anti-capitalist mindset", which is undermined by actions necessary to maintain one's position in the market, in every case makes for thin gruel.
having said that, both of these guys seemed way more interested in maximising creative autonomy, preserving their particular approaches to craft & technique, than they were in maximising profit.
another consonance.
This feels true to me, yeah.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 5:19 pm
by Malloy
Anders wrote:Malloy wrote:Anders wrote:After reading this I can't tell them apart.
one of those descriptions makes no attempt at a qualitative assessment of personality, while the other does, even if it's only a few sentences.
i'm not saying they have the same cv, which is all these two texts help establish.
the two descriptions you cite are as useful to understanding both guys as dividing one's attention while watching a movie. at best, you get a partial understanding. at worst, misunderstanding becomes fact.
One dedicated his life to food, people and the human condition, the other is a musician, music producer, crusader of lost causes, with a long history of being an opinionated chode.
To disniss Bourdain’s career and love of food as his cv, makes no sense. It is a large part of who he was.
the text you quoted earlier doesnt come close to making the kind of qualitative assessment you just made here.
nor does it extrapolate from relatively shallow biographical facts it contains.
i haven’t misread or disregarded the text you used earlier to characterize bourdain. ive pointed out its deficiencies in making evaluations and insights about him.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 5:32 pm
by E.H. Ruddock
I bet Albini is a Dave A. fan though.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 5:37 pm
by Malloy
BurtReynolds wrote:Is this one of those Gen X things I don't care about?
Yes! (Even tho bourdain technically isn’t gen x)
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 5:37 pm
by Malloy
they are exactly that kind of dude
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 5:50 pm
by BurtReynolds
Malloy wrote:BurtReynolds wrote:Is this one of those Gen X things I don't care about?
Yes! (Even tho bourdain technically isn’t gen x)
Oh OK, I'm not Gen X anymore so this has nothing to do with me. Carry on.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 5:52 pm
by JuanHamm
Some of you guys have too many opinions.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 5:55 pm
by VinylGuy
yeah and dramatic ones too
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 5:55 pm
by Anders
E.H. Ruddock wrote:I bet Albini is a Dave A. fan though.
He generally hasn’t wanted to have anything to do with Pearl Jam, and even actively disliked them.
Hard to tell with Dave A, but probably not on his radar.
He does have a background from Montana like Jeff, and has (almost reluctantly) praised Jeff for his work on skateparks in Montana.
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 5:59 pm
by Anders
BurtReynolds wrote:Malloy wrote:BurtReynolds wrote:Is this one of those Gen X things I don't care about?
Yes! (Even tho bourdain technically isn’t gen x)
Oh OK, I'm not Gen X anymore so this has nothing to do with me. Carry on.
Haha
Re: What movies are you watching?
Posted: Thu April 13, 2023 5:59 pm
by Anders
JuanHamm wrote:Some of you guys have too many opinions.
Are you not like that?