Red Mosquito

Yeah, that's dumb as hell. Think before you post, people. It's about avoiding exploitation of animals.

*shrugs*

That's the craziest goddamn thing I've read today.

Don't be so mean to Ruddo

They crawl into the fruit which TEARS OFF THEIR WINGS AND TRAPS THEM INSIDE.

Yumm

theplatypus wrote:Don't be so mean to Ruddo

Was just a question. Things like that and honey seem to be fringe veganism

It sure seems the dude wasp gets to have all of the fun.

This thread is getting out of hand. Instead of you guys asking me how I feel about 19th century horses or the natural instincts of wasps, let me turn it around and raise some issues to you guys. To my mind, this is much more important.
Do humans create tragic lives for intelligent mammals, like cows and pigs? Why do we do that? To what end? Can this be stopped and is it worth trying to stop?
You don't have to post anything. I'm just trying to illustrate how I'm dealing with big questions here about unnecessary cruelty and suffering, as well as human and ecological health, and you're asking me frivolous, silly questions.

The Argonaut wrote:This thread is getting out of hand. Instead of you guys asking me how I feel about 19th century horses or the natural instincts of wasps, let me turn it around and raise some issues to you guys. To my mind, this is much more important.
Do humans create tragic lives for intelligent mammals, like cows and pigs? Why do we do that? To what end? Can this be stopped and is it worth trying to stop?
You don't have to post anything. I'm just trying to illustrate how I'm dealing with big questions here about unnecessary cruelty and suffering, as well as human and ecological health, and you're asking me frivolous, silly questions.

Know any diabetics?

I agree with trag, although i will point out when i mentioned veganism being an upper middle-class white people 'thing', you largely poo-pooed the comment.

Re: my question about roads etc., it was fairly silly, but i asked because most of human civilization has been built out of the use of animals for both food and labor, so i wanted to know how far does this ideology extend, and the boundries appear somewhat arbitrary. I mean how does one justify really anything you've grown accustomed to as a 21st century person? So much of what we live with in our comfortable 21st century lives is the result of some use of animals one way or another, so while it was a silly question on the surface, perhaps it's worth talking about as the larger ramifications seem boundless to me.

You, ideally, should till your own soil, grow not only your own food but also cotton and whatever fibrous plants and weave clothing yourself, with a loom you built, from trees you grew in such a way as to not disturb any birds that might build their nests in said trees and and and... it just doesn't seem like logistically, there's anything you can do that won't impact animals or their habitats. Want to put gas in your car? wonder how many fish and other sea creatures died because of how oil is extracted from ocean floors...

And don't get me wrong, i think hunting is rather deplorable, and have donated whatever money i could to wildlife preservation, and don't think eating a high in vegetable diet is a bad thing, but being vegan seems like an extreme to me, and in practice... impractical.

Sorry to ask dumb questions otherwise

okay

Argo kind of addressed all this

The Argonaut wrote:And yeah, the food industry is super fucked in a lot of ways. But that isn't an excuse for me to not try to do my best as I can. It's a process. I know meat and dairy are morally unjustifiable and I'm cutting them. I've cut out palm oils since trag posted that article about how harmful they are and I looked into it. The better question is what should I do next. Not: well the other option is also not easy and perfect so fuck it.

The Argonaut wrote: My A-number-1 ultimate point is that I think the vegan diet helps humans because
1) animal agriculture is devastating to the planet. methane emissions and rainforest deforestation are two really bad ones that if slowed and reduced now can have major benefits to slowing climate change
2) the vegan diet is a very healthy option for the human body

There are a lot of things that can help humans. But this is the food and debate forum. And the title of this thread is "being vegan". So, that's naturally what the focus of the thread is. Talking about exploited human miners and unethical phone production is basically unrelated and kind of an unfair counter to my arguments. It's a form of what-about-ism.

But these are all basic defensive responses. The bottom line is that the term "vegan" comes off as an affectation, and one with an air of moral superiority, so people automatically feel judged by it and try to poke holes in the premise instead of engaging with it honestly.

It doesn't feel that way, at least not in this page. I'm seeing unrelated arguments about the ethics of quinoa and the comforts of 21st century living.

I'm not vegan. I will never be. I like meat too much. But it sounds like Argo is saying: "I have a problem with the effect the meat and dairy industry is having on our bodies, on the animals and on the planet, so I'm cutting them out", and people are responding "oh but what about this other thing that is also messed up? And this other thing?", like I sort of did earlier when talking about sustainably manufactured cell phones. It all comes off as defensive chest-puffing.

Im being honest and i resent your presumptive analysis

Im done here, please continue serious discussion without worry of further interruption by me

I mean, we had conversations about other foods, and I'm trying to understand here. Figs popped into my head today and I was just curious. Argo drops this thread and wants us to learn with him, but I guess my question was too... dickish? I'll just hang up and listen from now on.