Red Mosquito

The Argonaut wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

The Argonaut wrote:I don't get why some of you guys immediately jump to "it's a conspiracy, Biden and the DNC bribed them with promises of a Cabinet post" every time someone drops out. Isn't it plausible that maybe they are dropping out because people aren't voting for them or choosing them in polls or donating to their campaigns?

Who said this?

some of you guys

who, tell me who argo

tragabigzanda wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think there are more socialists in America than nevertrumper Republicans (they're almost entirely mythological in my opinion). And it's not even close. I can understand a socialist sitting out if Biden is a nominee. He simply doesn't represent their interests.

I think a lot of these socialists are quite young, possibly first-time voters, and that their politics will become less extreme in the coming years. That's not to say that their concerns about debt, tuition, and the climate are unfounded; but that I bet they'll think twice about ripping the rug out from capitalism once they've made junior partner at their firm and can afford a nice condo in Williamsburg

It’s hilarious that you think this is a realistic or even desirable trajectory for many millennials and zoomers

I assumed Argo was reacting to this:

McParadigm wrote:I’ve been wondering what that Klob vs Pete fight was during the debate...why they were sniping at each other when neither was a front runner or major hurtle to the other. My assumption was that someone had made clear that they were both up for the same support post...possibly a VP spot. Given their quick exits the moment Biden has momentum, it’s pretty clear who they’ve been talking to.

Which is literally business as usual for this stage of a primary. See also: primary opponent-turned-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

Also reducing this to “socialists who want to rip the rug out from under capitalism” is such a bad faith starting point it’s probably not even worth engaging with

tragabigzanda wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think there are more socialists in America than nevertrumper Republicans (they're almost entirely mythological in my opinion). And it's not even close. I can understand a socialist sitting out if Biden is a nominee. He simply doesn't represent their interests.

I think a lot of these socialists are quite young, possibly first-time voters, and that their politics will become less extreme in the coming years. That's not to say that their concerns about debt, tuition, and the climate are unfounded; but that I bet they'll think twice about ripping the rug out from capitalism once they've made junior partner at their firm and can afford a nice condo in Williamsburg

I don't know if the conventional wisdom that people become more conservative* as they age and have more to conserve holds true anymore, or at least as true as it once did. The cards are structurally stacked against younger generations in ways which they weren't 20 or 30 years ago. Fewer and fewer young people are getting to that point of being financially successful and asset-rich that you describe. Health care has to be a massive, massive issue too. Everyone in the developed world finds the US health care system absolutely insane.

* As commonly-defined. I consider myself conservative though my views have little commonality with the Republican party.

tragabigzanda wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think there are more socialists in America than nevertrumper Republicans (they're almost entirely mythological in my opinion). And it's not even close. I can understand a socialist sitting out if Biden is a nominee. He simply doesn't represent their interests.

I think a lot of these socialists are quite young, possibly first-time voters, and that their politics will become less extreme in the coming years. That's not to say that their concerns about debt, tuition, and the climate are unfounded; but that I bet they'll think twice about ripping the rug out from capitalism once they've made junior partner at their firm and can afford a nice condo in Williamsburg

It’s hilarious that you think this is a realistic or even desirable trajectory for many millennials and zoomers

you're aware that many boomers were once full-on hippies, right?

You’re aware the economic conditions they came of age in were completely different than what we have now, right?

tragabigzanda wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think there are more socialists in America than nevertrumper Republicans (they're almost entirely mythological in my opinion). And it's not even close. I can understand a socialist sitting out if Biden is a nominee. He simply doesn't represent their interests.

I think a lot of these socialists are quite young, possibly first-time voters, and that their politics will become less extreme in the coming years. That's not to say that their concerns about debt, tuition, and the climate are unfounded; but that I bet they'll think twice about ripping the rug out from capitalism once they've made junior partner at their firm and can afford a nice condo in Williamsburg

It’s hilarious that you think this is a realistic or even desirable trajectory for many millennials and zoomers

you're aware that many boomers were once full-on hippies, right?

And once they got tired of being hippies, they bought a house and a car and supported a family of four on a job they walked into without a college education.

Research pretty consistently shows that most people stay ideologically “fixed” as they age. You’re not going to outwait this group of Democrats by pushing them down. You’re just going to jade them towards the party.

Birds in Hell wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think there are more socialists in America than nevertrumper Republicans (they're almost entirely mythological in my opinion). And it's not even close. I can understand a socialist sitting out if Biden is a nominee. He simply doesn't represent their interests.

I think a lot of these socialists are quite young, possibly first-time voters, and that their politics will become less extreme in the coming years. That's not to say that their concerns about debt, tuition, and the climate are unfounded; but that I bet they'll think twice about ripping the rug out from capitalism once they've made junior partner at their firm and can afford a nice condo in Williamsburg

It’s hilarious that you think this is a realistic or even desirable trajectory for many millennials and zoomers

you're aware that many boomers were once full-on hippies, right?

And once they got tired of being hippies, they bought a house and a car and supported a family of four on a job they walked into without a college education.

Yepppppp. Or with a college education they paid like $5 for.

Chris_H_2 wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think there are more socialists in America than nevertrumper Republicans (they're almost entirely mythological in my opinion). And it's not even close. I can understand a socialist sitting out if Biden is a nominee. He simply doesn't represent their interests.

but how exactly will their interests be represented by a president sanders with mitch mcconnell still creeping around as the senate majority leader?

That's going to be the case regardless. McConnell and company has had zero tolerance for all democratic initiatives, regardless of how moderate. I don't see how Biden has a much better chance if getting anything through.

But I don't think anyone goes to the voting booth thinking of that.

And what is the alternative you offer, trag? Preemptive disenfranchisement? A candidate who won’t even attempt to do anything positive?

tragabigzanda wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think there are more socialists in America than nevertrumper Republicans (they're almost entirely mythological in my opinion). And it's not even close. I can understand a socialist sitting out if Biden is a nominee. He simply doesn't represent their interests.

I think a lot of these socialists are quite young, possibly first-time voters, and that their politics will become less extreme in the coming years. That's not to say that their concerns about debt, tuition, and the climate are unfounded; but that I bet they'll think twice about ripping the rug out from capitalism once they've made junior partner at their firm and can afford a nice condo in Williamsburg

It’s hilarious that you think this is a realistic or even desirable trajectory for many millennials and zoomers

you're aware that many boomers were once full-on hippies, right?

And once they got tired of being hippies, they bought a house and a car and supported a family of four on a job they walked into without a college education.

These are all totally fair arguments, and understand that my own arguments here are not at all about my own ideology, but rather just trying to understand how the DNC best plays this. In my view, it would be insane for them to go all-in on Bernie when he will accomplish nothing, and disenfranchise young voters in the process.

I agree, and my largely uninformed view is that I'd prefer Warren.

I think the popularity of Bernie is meaningful though, those views and the votes which attach to them aren't going anywhere.

Isn't the basic rule of negotiation to demand more than you want? I don't think Sanders is incapable of compromise.

IF Trump wins again, this conversation here will provide some evidence for the win. It’s very possible that the older half of the country won’t turn out enough for Bernie. Equally possible the younger half won’t turn up for Biden. As for warren, she’ll retain the suburbs but it’s hard to see where else she can perform well enough.

I’m no doomsdayer, Trump is totally beatable, but we all know Dems are always their own worst enemy.