Red Mosquito

also, stip, clever agency quip

i like the video

I think the lyrics "Mind Your Manners" is not unlike "stand behind the stripes, there will be order..."

Don't question. Keep your mouth shut. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain etc....

In liking the echo of the evolution video. If its there that is. I think so.

dimejinky99 wrote:In liking the echo of the evolution video. If its there that is. I think so.

We all certainly see it, but then again, the animator for MYM may have never seen DTE. He said he wasn't a Pearl Jam fan, so it's possible.

stip wrote: you seem pretty rock solid confident about his motives though.

As do you. I mean, look at your own work here. You post meanings of every PJ song and album. Sometimes, your interps (which are often quite good btw) can come across as if, you’re the author. Maybe even you convince yourself of this at times? Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the read, but I’m just trying to remind you that you’re not him, so your opinion has no more merit than anyone else’s.

stip wrote:Two things

1--not every piece of art can be about everything. Even on an album like Riot Act there was Bushleaguer (quite specific) and there was Green Disease (very general)

What does this have to do with anything? I’m simply saying this is a song about confronting hypocrisy that has geo-politics written all over it…. Yet, there’s certainly elements of hypocrisy coming from the lead vocalist if he’s not going to cast some blame on the guy in the White House. Better yet, don’t even use his image or name… just put something about the NSA or something, anything he disagrees with in there. Just one item… anything. I mean, this same lead vocalist, was quite good at doing that when the guy in the White House wore a “R” label. I just don’t get it and I have no clue why you’re defending it either.

stip wrote:2--Eddie may very well love everything about Obama. We don't know. But Eddie raised money for Obama's reelection campaign. I know many many many people who are tepid about obama but loathed romney (and more generally the reaction conservatives who would be driving the party). Raising money to stop one does not imply unconditional support of the other.

We’ve gone over this a multitude of times. I agree. However, where I disagree is what this same guy says on his soap box. So, let me reiterate – he’s never, not once, ever… said anything remotely negative about the guy in office or his policies. Not once. He doesn’t have to call Obama out by name to say he disagrees with X Y or Z policy. And he’s been quite vocal on everything Presidential politics in the past. So, vote for him? Check. Raise millions of dollars for him? Check. Not say anything slightly negative about him? Check. Write songs about hypocrisy (that hints at gov’t) and don’t ever include any aspect that could be linked back to him? Check.

stip wrote:Oh, I didn't realize. Thank you for clarifying.

You’re welcome. Truth be told, this song’s video and even this discussion underscores everything about Obama’s failed Presidency. The President prior, Bush, was a giant disaster – but, at least he went down accepting responsibility for what he did and did not do. This guy now (Obama), and supporters of his, involve themselves in constant deflection. Everything wrong is someone else’s fault, ALL THE TIME. Blame can never be placed with the President or his admin anymore. If he doesn’t change, that’s going to be his legacy, the loser who was blaming teammates, the refs and even guys who played before him (Bush).

stip wrote: There was a shot of the printing press in the video. I think Eddie's target in that video is war and environmental collapse, not fiscal policy. I, perhaps like Eddie, would also rank QE pretty far down on the list of challenges facing this nation. And certainly debt. And obviously Eddie cannot come close to mastering the economic knowledge I'm sure you've amassed reading blogs on the internet, given your slick use of QE-to-infinity.

True there was a shot of the printing press. That said, I think that was more used to symbolize greed than a shot at the Fed. If it was about the Fed they could’ve showed that in many more ways. I think Ed’s target is anyone who disagrees with him, actually. The irony there, given this songs lyrics is lol’able. Anyway, isn’t Ed for privacy? Why not some shots of drones?
To paraphrase your point…you, “perhaps like Eddie”, have no idea what QE-to-infinity even is. The term’s not a slick use of insider terminology, it actually reflects what they are doing quite well and is used pretty much everywhere to describe QE3. As for me gaining my knowledge “from reading blogs on the internet”,… you don’t think that’s patronizing much – do you? You don’t know me. I can assure you, I have more education (both in this area via formal schooling and work) than yourself and Mr. Vedder combined.
Outside of the patronizing, printing money is extremely problematic, whether you like it or not. Those who don’t understand monetary policy have a tendency to undervalue its importance and think fiscal policy (president and congress) are more powerful than they actually are.

stip wrote:But again, this is a 2:30 second song. Not a 400 page treatise. You kinda have to pick your targets. Not everything can be about everything.

The song doesn’t have to be about everything. But, it could be about contemporary issues rather than issues re-vamped issues that could be used to describe PJ songs from the early 2000s. It’s f’ing 2013. The issues are all around us… maybe he could have chosen 1 issue… just 1… that would place a slight focus for a millisecond on our current admin.
The title of this vid from sources reads: “Pearl Jam urges us to question hypocrisy in their latest video”. I’m saying – ummm… look in the mirror. If you can’t f’ing admit this admin is semi involved in geo-political events (now that they have power) that have not turned out well, than Mr. Vedder you are quite the cheerleading, kool-aid drinking, sheep.

stip wrote:When campaigning for someone it is generally an effective strategy to not badmouth them. If I was speaking about Obama in a classroom I'd say different things, far more nuanced and critical than if I was introducing him at a fundraiser or investing time and money into ensuring that Romney does not get elected.

He’s done campaigning for him. Prior to the 2012 campaign, he’s not said a word negative on his policies. One f’ing word. Policies don’t describe the man. He could like him, vote for him, raise money for him and still be critical of this or that. And he’s not since. This is more evidence that’s he’s just plain scared or a large hypocrite. I’ll be honest, it bothers me because I respected his views on Bush’s policy. May not have always 100% agreed, but I respected his dissent. But, where is that guy now? He seems to me to be gone in totality. And the real thing that bothers me is, this song’s about all that… about that guy.

stip wrote:Yes, it is. It empowers the alternative. Had Nader not run in 2000 Al Gore wins. The lesser of two evils, perhaps, but probably significantly lesser.

I’ll say this one more time…. A voter is more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the polls on election day than influence the election. That’s a legit stat. That one person’s vote DOES not matter and never has. If that one person decides to pull the lever for X, or stay home. It doesn’t matter. You’re avoiding that point. You’re aggregating. One person’s vote doesn’t matter. What does matter is when a lot of people do something. I agree with that. But, that’s not what you were originally saying.

stip wrote:You seem to be upset by the fact that politics is messy and that the clean bright lines we like to draw when moralizing don't easily apply there. The decision to vote, not vote, how you vote, how you engage politics more broadly, has consequences. The fact that following your conscience can lead to sup optimal real world consequences is unfortunate, but no less true for being unfortunate.

No, I’m not upset by the fact that politics is messy at all. I’m upset by hypocrites. Especially, when they write songs about hypocrisy at the political scale and are blinded by their own partisanship. I can not stand blind partisans on either side. To me, they are the definition of ignorance.

stip wrote:had to break that up in two. sorry

No worries.

stip wrote: I am not sure how often I heard the word small business coming out of his mic. Let me check and see if my local better business bureau has him listed as a speaker. Most of the rants seemed to be about corporate POWER. We live in a world where most everything is controlled by corporations and large scale organizations. It’s hard to avoid them.

They could avoid them and still be quite well off. They just want more money. It’s a green disease… right?

stip wrote:
Hypocrisy is not simply failing to practice what you preach. Hypocrisy is profiting by deceiving others--pretending to be something that you are not. But semantics aside, there is another word for when you said something in the past and then, in response to evidence and experience, change your position to account for what you've learned. And it's not hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy can, in fact, be failing to practice what you preach. And yes, hypocrisy can be “profiting” by deceiving others – pretending to be something you are not. Both fit the bill here on PJ and corporations or PJ and the current admin.

stip wrote: I'm not sure you know what a democrat is.

I do. Thanks for patronizing though.

stip wrote:
actually, that line seems to be a shot at religion, but the song is reaching for a larger point.

A point about taking action, right? Yeh, ummm… why’s he not doing that?

[

stip wrote: that's what an election is. The problem with democracy is when it starts and stops with elections.

Democratic elections don’t have to be filled with pom-pom waving ignorant voters, voting in special interest proxies. There’s potential for people to learn about the slime that’s occurring behind the scense on BOTH sides and try to change the process, rather than rooting “GOOOoooo TEEEAAAMMM!”

stip wrote: I'll leave your Ron Paul newsletter alone, but you'll find a sympathetic audience for this stuff in N+D.

My Ron Paul newsletter? Wow… more patronizing? Ron Paul has his own issues.

stip wrote:
Look, I said this earlier, but this is a song that is working in broad generalities. In fact, these types of protest songs tend to work better when they are slightly vague and not going after dated targets. And Eddie was writing them even when he was going after Bush.

I am all for vague, just vague with a hint of truth behind it. That use to be the case.

Illumin, no offense but the internet devils advocate with no political convictions is my least favourite shtick.

IlluminEddie wrote: I mean, look at your own work here. You post meanings of every PJ song and album. Sometimes, your interps (which are often quite good btw) can come across as if, you’re the author. Maybe even you convince yourself of this at times? Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the read, but I’m just trying to remind you that you’re not him

thanks for clearing that up. I was uncertain for a while.

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:Two things

1--not every piece of art can be about everything. Even on an album like Riot Act there was Bushleaguer (quite specific) and there was Green Disease (very general)

What does this have to do with anything? I’m simply saying this is a song about confronting hypocrisy that has geo-politics written all over it….

and your objection is that the song/video doesn’t concretely address a problem with domestic spying and American fiscal policy. You want this DTE to be Bushleaguer.

IlluminEddie wrote: Write songs about hypocrisy (that hints at gov’t) and don’t ever include any aspect that could be linked back to him? Check.

Not that type of song. Not even that type of video. I get that you really hate obama and think this is a disastrous presidency. That’s fine. Think what you want. I’m not going to debate that with you here. But you asking this song to help you emotionally unload all your issues with the president, and it’s just not designed to do that.

IlluminEddie wrote: True there was a shot of the printing press. That said, I think that was more used to symbolize greed than a shot at the Fed.

I think you’re right.

IlluminEddie wrote: To paraphrase your point…you, “perhaps like Eddie”, have no idea what QE-to-infinity even is

I am pretty sure I do. Where we differ is that I do not think it is a sign of an impending apocalypse. I’m also not hording gold.

IlluminEddie wrote: . The term’s not a slick use of insider terminology, it actually reflects what they are doing quite well and is used pretty much everywhere to describe QE3. As for me gaining my knowledge “from reading blogs on the internet”,… you don’t think that’s patronizing much – do you? You don’t know me. I can assure you, I have more education (both in this area via formal schooling and work) than yourself and Mr. Vedder combined.

Do you? What is your background here, since you are claiming so much expertise? I have a phd in political science, am an associate professor of American Politics, an author, and teach courses in, amongst other things, political economy. And Eddie has a GED, I think. So together we add up to quite a bit.

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:But again, this is a 2:30 second song. Not a 400 page treatise. You kinda have to pick your targets. Not everything can be about everything.

The song doesn’t have to be about everything. But, it could be about contemporary issues rather than issues re-vamped issues that could be used to describe PJ songs from the early 2000s. It’s f’ing 2013. The issues are all around us… maybe he could have chosen 1 issue… just 1… that would place a slight focus for a millisecond on our current admin.

That eddie didn’t write the song YOU wanted him to write is not a valid critique of the one he did right.

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:When campaigning for someone it is generally an effective strategy to not badmouth them. If I was speaking about Obama in a classroom I'd say different things, far more nuanced and critical than if I was introducing him at a fundraiser or investing time and money into ensuring that Romney does not get elected.

He’s done campaigning for him. Prior to the 2012 campaign, he’s not said a word negative on his policies. One f’ing word. Policies don’t describe the man. He could like him, vote for him, raise money for him and still be critical of this or that. And he’s not since. This is more evidence that’s he’s just plain scared or a large hypocrite. I’ll be honest, it bothers me because I respected his views on Bush’s policy. May not have always 100% agreed, but I respected his dissent. But, where is that guy now? He seems to me to be gone in totality. And the real thing that bothers me is, this song’s about all that… about that guy.

you seem to be angry that eddie has not reprised the totality of two albums critical of an administration, and several large tours worth of public comments, into a two and a half minute song that avoids concrete details while trying to address larger themes about agency against a backdrop of a collapsing world (in the video). At least wait until you get an album and a tour until you level that complaint. Maybe you’re right. But the amount of vitriol you seem to have over this seems a bit premature, no?

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:Yes, it is. It empowers the alternative. Had Nader not run in 2000 Al Gore wins. The lesser of two evils, perhaps, but probably significantly lesser.

I’ll say this one more time…. A voter is more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the polls on election day than influence the election.
That’s a legit stat. That one person’s vote DOES not matter and never has. If that one person decides to pull the lever for X, or stay home. It doesn’t matter. You’re avoiding that point. You’re aggregating.

Elections are about the aggregation of group preferences. It is juvenile narcissism to reduce voting to ‘WHY DON’T I GET TO BE THE PERSON WHO PERSONALLY DECIDES WHAT HAPPENS’. Beyond that i’m not sure what you’re arguing here.

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote: I am not sure how often I heard the word small business coming out of his mic. Let me check and see if my local better business bureau has him listed as a speaker. Most of the rants seemed to be about corporate POWER. We live in a world where most everything is controlled by corporations and large scale organizations. It’s hard to avoid them.

They could avoid them and still be quite well off. They just want more money. It’s a green disease… right?

I’m typing this in word cuz it is a big post. This is just a reminder to me to go back and add the eye rolling emote here.

ahh, here we are

videos are almost never literal or exact translations of the song. except Jeremy.

BurtReynolds wrote:videos are almost never literal or exact translations of the song. except Jeremy.

Jeremy is about Eddie looking dreamy?

At the end of the day I still get the kick out of MYM

People said there was "renewed energy" in both of the last two albums. Didn't hear it. Hearing it here.

harmless wrote:People said there was "renewed energy" in both of the last two albums. Didn't hear it. Hearing it here.

Me too. And the Q editors remark was encouraging.

harmless wrote:People said there was "renewed energy" in both of the last two albums. Didn't hear it. Hearing it here.

I've heard it in all 3, personally. different types of energy though

stip wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote: I mean, look at your own work here. You post meanings of every PJ song and album. Sometimes, your interps (which are often quite good btw) can come across as if, you’re the author. Maybe even you convince yourself of this at times? Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the read, but I’m just trying to remind you that you’re not him

thanks for clearing that up. I was uncertain for a while.

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:Two things

1--not every piece of art can be about everything. Even on an album like Riot Act there was Bushleaguer (quite specific) and there was Green Disease (very general)

What does this have to do with anything? I’m simply saying this is a song about confronting hypocrisy that has geo-politics written all over it….

and your objection is that the song/video doesn’t concretely address a problem with domestic spying and American fiscal policy. You want this DTE to be Bushleaguer.

IlluminEddie wrote: Write songs about hypocrisy (that hints at gov’t) and don’t ever include any aspect that could be linked back to him? Check.

Not that type of song. Not even that type of video. I get that you really hate obama and think this is a disastrous presidency. That’s fine. Think what you want. I’m not going to debate that with you here. But you asking this song to help you emotionally unload all your issues with the president, and it’s just not designed to do that.

IlluminEddie wrote: True there was a shot of the printing press. That said, I think that was more used to symbolize greed than a shot at the Fed.

I think you’re right.

IlluminEddie wrote: To paraphrase your point…you, “perhaps like Eddie”, have no idea what QE-to-infinity even is

I am pretty sure I do. Where we differ is that I do not think it is a sign of an impending apocalypse. I’m also not hording gold.

IlluminEddie wrote: . The term’s not a slick use of insider terminology, it actually reflects what they are doing quite well and is used pretty much everywhere to describe QE3. As for me gaining my knowledge “from reading blogs on the internet”,… you don’t think that’s patronizing much – do you? You don’t know me. I can assure you, I have more education (both in this area via formal schooling and work) than yourself and Mr. Vedder combined.

Do you? What is your background here, since you are claiming so much expertise? I have a phd in political science, am an associate professor of American Politics, an author, and teach courses in, amongst other things, political economy. And Eddie has a GED, I think. So together we add up to quite a bit.

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:But again, this is a 2:30 second song. Not a 400 page treatise. You kinda have to pick your targets. Not everything can be about everything.

The song doesn’t have to be about everything. But, it could be about contemporary issues rather than issues re-vamped issues that could be used to describe PJ songs from the early 2000s. It’s f’ing 2013. The issues are all around us… maybe he could have chosen 1 issue… just 1… that would place a slight focus for a millisecond on our current admin.

That eddie didn’t write the song YOU wanted him to write is not a valid critique of the one he did right.

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:When campaigning for someone it is generally an effective strategy to not badmouth them. If I was speaking about Obama in a classroom I'd say different things, far more nuanced and critical than if I was introducing him at a fundraiser or investing time and money into ensuring that Romney does not get elected.

He’s done campaigning for him. Prior to the 2012 campaign, he’s not said a word negative on his policies. One f’ing word. Policies don’t describe the man. He could like him, vote for him, raise money for him and still be critical of this or that. And he’s not since. This is more evidence that’s he’s just plain scared or a large hypocrite. I’ll be honest, it bothers me because I respected his views on Bush’s policy. May not have always 100% agreed, but I respected his dissent. But, where is that guy now? He seems to me to be gone in totality. And the real thing that bothers me is, this song’s about all that… about that guy.

you seem to be angry that eddie has not reprised the totality of two albums critical of an administration, and several large tours worth of public comments, into a two and a half minute song that avoids concrete details while trying to address larger themes about agency against a backdrop of a collapsing world (in the video). At least wait until you get an album and a tour until you level that complaint. Maybe you’re right. But the amount of vitriol you seem to have over this seems a bit premature, no?

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote:Yes, it is. It empowers the alternative. Had Nader not run in 2000 Al Gore wins. The lesser of two evils, perhaps, but probably significantly lesser.

I’ll say this one more time…. A voter is more likely to die in a car crash on the way to the polls on election day than influence the election.
That’s a legit stat. That one person’s vote DOES not matter and never has. If that one person decides to pull the lever for X, or stay home. It doesn’t matter. You’re avoiding that point. You’re aggregating.

Elections are about the aggregation of group preferences. It is juvenile narcissism to reduce voting to ‘WHY DON’T I GET TO BE THE PERSON WHO PERSONALLY DECIDES WHAT HAPPENS’. Beyond that i’m not sure what you’re arguing here.

IlluminEddie wrote:

stip wrote: I am not sure how often I heard the word small business coming out of his mic. Let me check and see if my local better business bureau has him listed as a speaker. Most of the rants seemed to be about corporate POWER. We live in a world where most everything is controlled by corporations and large scale organizations. It’s hard to avoid them.

They could avoid them and still be quite well off. They just want more money. It’s a green disease… right?

I’m typing this in word cuz it is a big post. This is just a reminder to me to go back and add the eye rolling emote here.

ahh, here we are

I'm sorry but if this was a fight, the referee would have stepped in and stopped this thing. IlluminEddie's face would be hamburger. Stip enjoy your belt!

not yet, not yet, I really want to know who has been playing drums the longest

i should actually retract some of what I said. beyond 'war is bad' no pearl jam song has ever really addressed an issue in a concrete way. But Bushleaguer and WWS do call the president names.

Interesting point from a different pj forum.

It's simple... DTE and Jeremy were able to stand on their own two feet sans video. This song benefits from the video much more substantially.

I don't know that I agree.