Red Mosquito

Rob wrote:I think he's saying that the personal responsibility "bootstraps" mentality comes from an era with a unique context, by Boomers & those who probably could (if white) go work hard and live decently. No one ever says personal responsibility & hard work are bad or useless, just that the world has changed. Data seems to show we work harder today and are more productive, but deeper in debt and economically stressed (even though many households have more than one wage earner now).

Yup.

My favorite example of how essential the marriage of personal responsibility and robust social supports can be is my wife: South Dakota farm girl, Catholic community, pregnant at 17. Forced to marry the father (who was as bitter, unhappy and not in love as she, and ultimately turned abusive), she was left literally trapped out on a farm with no license, no car, no nearby friends, and a mean drunk.

She left, got a divorce, and was then a single mother with a high school diploma and no work or life experience. Using food stamps, low income housing, and a financial support program for single mothers that state Republicans later killed, she kept her kids fed and clothed while going to college full time during the day and working nights at McDonalds to pay the rent. Earned a science degree, got a job in a lab, started paying off student loans and saving for a house.

All of that personal responsibility and effort was made possible by the social service programs that she had access to and, had they been more robust, her son’s disability could have been better cared for....which would likely have made his life very different today (and decreased the chances of him becoming a financial burden to the state at any later point in his life).

washing machine wrote:

Mickey wrote:

washing machine wrote:Clearly not all "lefties" shirk personal responsibility, but memes like this don't help the image:



Also, clearly not all millennials are "lefties," but this theme does feel like it leans one way and not the other.

What exactly does this Twitter joke have to do with leftism, Reido?

Contained within the joke is a deflection of personal responsibility, which is also a common criticism the right has of liberals who look to politicians and society to solve their problems.

It's also either willfully ignorant about the world or a rejection of recognition of any social progress outside of fully instituting an unachievable theoretical ideal, both very millennial leftist.

McParadigm wrote:

Rob wrote:I think he's saying that the personal responsibility "bootstraps" mentality comes from an era with a unique context, by Boomers & those who probably could (if white) go work hard and live decently. No one ever says personal responsibility & hard work are bad or useless, just that the world has changed. Data seems to show we work harder today and are more productive, but deeper in debt and economically stressed (even though many households have more than one wage earner now).

Yup.

My favorite example of how essential the marriage of personal responsibility and robust social supports can be is my wife: South Dakota farm girl, Catholic community, pregnant at 17. Forced to marry the father (who was as bitter, unhappy and not in love as she, and ultimately turned abusive), she was left literally trapped out on a farm with no license, no car, no nearby friends, and a mean drunk.

She left, got a divorce, and was then a single mother with a high school diploma and no work or life experience. Using food stamps, low income housing, and a financial support program for single mothers that state Republicans later killed, she kept her kids fed and clothed while going to college full time during the day and working nights at McDonalds to pay the rent. Earned a science degree, got a job in a lab, started paying off student loans and saving for a house.

All of that personal responsibility and effort was made possible by the social service programs that she had access to and, had they been more robust, her son’s disability could have been better cared for....which would likely have made his life very different today (and decreased the chances of him becoming a financial burden to the state at any later point in his life).

yea but tell her to wrap it up next time for fucks sake am i right?

tragabigzanda wrote:Strat

I hope that within the context of the discussion, that ridiculous reply drove a point home.

Carry on.

This argument requires more nuance than I'm prepared to give it.

But a little more stoicism couldn't hurt.

I’ve been very busy today, and will be tonight too, so I haven’t really kept up with the conversation but I figured this would probably drive some of you crazy too.

Half of those are fake

Where do you get your infowarrior memes PJ?

washing machine wrote:What do we make of personal responsibility outside of economics?

In a democratic society, is there ever an era in which the decisions you make about your diet, your values, your education, how you choose to feel about the world, and the extent of your involvement in your community aren't all your responsibility?

Well for starters there's absolutely no "outside" of economics.

Rob wrote:I think he's saying that the personal responsibility "bootstraps" mentality comes from an era with a unique context, by Boomers & those who probably could (if white) go work hard and live decently. No one ever says personal responsibility & hard work are bad or useless, just that the world has changed. Data seems to show we work harder today and are more productive, but deeper in debt and economically stressed (even though many households have more than one wage earner now).

Yes, precisely. I can't imagine any political worldview other than the most abject nihilism refusing to value hard work. The question is the extent to which personal sacrifice or responsibility is seen as one causal component among many others or, conversely, as the primary determinant of one's position in society. The latter--the bootstraps mentality-- is clearly a sedimented idea from a previous historical conjecture where, even if it was true, it depended on ignoring the broader global chain of labor that made it possible for a single (white) US individual to have such opportunities--more pertinently for this conversation, it relied on a reality wholly unavailable for most people today. One should take reasonable responsibility for one's life, of course, but to pretend that there aren't larger social forces that constrain the array of choices available to any given individual is just downright insane.

E.H. Ruddock wrote:Half of those are fake

For one, Snoop Dogg has two Gs, not one, so it's already pretty suspect.

While we're being more nuanced, it should also be noted that few make absolute "pick yourself up by your bootstraps" arguments in the first place. Even if you fuck up your own life, no one expects you to starve.

I would like to believe that in the industrialized metropole countries the goalposts have long since moved past "not starving to death."

If we kill em they won't learn nothin'

Cool good talk Mac.

I'm around any time you need to talk, mick.

The left would be free of most of these silly accusations of instigating violence if like 95% of dumbass celebrities weren't left wing.

Lol no they wouldn't.

BurtReynolds wrote:The left would be free of most of these silly claims of instigating violence if like 95% of dumbass celebrities weren't left wing.

The world needs more Jon Voights