Red Mosquito

yup

VinylGuy wrote:

stip wrote:I don't think the fixer was an intentional fuck you to fans. Nor is a song like sirens. They're just songs people with a certain fixed idea of what pearl jam should sound like are likely going to react poorly too.

I agree. But in a way the fixer was as experimental as Who you are as a first single in 1996.

If by experimental you mean "Lowest Common Denominator Pop Rock from Band searching for Lowest Common Denominator Fans", then yeah, pretty experimental.

Who You Are is the exact opposite of this. I don't understand you Fixer folk.

I think when Vinylguy is using the phrase experimental (vague trafficking with eastern rythems that have been used in music for decades is hardly experimental--which is itself one of the more irritating words in music dicussion/critique) what he means is that it is a song that is defying the built in expectations of its listeners.

stip wrote:I can't believe more people aren't talking about how great the fixer is.

Most likely because its probably the worst song this band has made.

stip wrote:I think when Vinylguy is using the phrase experimental (vague trafficking with eastern rythems that have been used in music for decades is hardly experimental--which is itself one of the more irritating words in music discussion/critique) what he means is that it is a song that is defying the built in expectations of its listeners.

OK. Yes, both songs defied the expectations of its listeners. And both were received by many of the current fans at that time to be progressing in a sub-par direction.

Many thought Vitalogy defied expectations in the wrong direction.
No Code went even further in defying expectations and many more people thought this was the wrong direction.
Nothing as it Seems was another example of defying expectations, but by this point, I think most of those left were to open to it, although both Binaural & Riot Act certainly dropped more fans than they gained.
Avocado was the last worthy attempt at creating something meaningful (too bad it sounds like shit and they failed to connect the theme of the album)

The Fixer and Backspacer in general certainly defied the expectations of the remaining fans, but did it at the expense of attempting to craft a sound that attracted new ones. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but this is the first time that the band defied expectations in an attempt to gain fans. While this may have been a worthwhile effort for them at that stage, I don't think anyone can argue effectively that the new direction will be as memorable or longstanding as the previous attempts at expectation defiance. I still argue that the new direction was rooted in the desire to regain immediate popularity (or money, or acceptance, or whatever, all the same thing) as opposed to craft a type of music that has longevity or musical merit.

hlniv wrote:

stip wrote:I think when Vinylguy is using the phrase experimental (vague trafficking with eastern rythems that have been used in music for decades is hardly experimental--which is itself one of the more irritating words in music discussion/critique) what he means is that it is a song that is defying the built in expectations of its listeners.

OK. Yes, both songs defied the expectations of its listeners. And both were received by many of the current fans at that time to be progressing in a sub-par direction.

Many thought Vitalogy defied expectations in the wrong direction.
No Code went even further in defying expectations and many more people thought this was the wrong direction.
Nothing as it Seems was another example of defying expectations, but by this point, I think most of those left were to open to it, although both Binaural & Riot Act certainly dropped more fans than they gained.
Avocado was the last worthy attempt at creating something meaningful (too bad it sounds like shit and they failed to connect the theme of the album)

The Fixer and Backspacer in general certainly defied the expectations of the remaining fans, but did it at the expense of attempting to craft a sound that attracted new ones. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but this is the first time that the band defied expectations in an attempt to gain fans. While this may have been a worthwhile effort for them at that stage, I don't think anyone can argue effectively that the new direction will be as memorable or longstanding as the previous attempts at expectation defiance. I still argue that the new direction was rooted in the desire to regain immediate popularity (or money, or acceptance, or whatever, all the same thing) as opposed to craft a type of music that has longevity or musical merit.

Well that seems to be the main idea for those who dont like this album. They sure wanted more fans; if that affected the music i dont know nor care; i actually love this song, this album...should we really care?
Sometimes the fans are more romantic than the band itself.

I do think The Fixer is more of a challenge for the pj fan than, lets say..Save You, WWS or Given To Fly....is it better?? it depends.

hlniv wrote:

stip wrote:I think when Vinylguy is using the phrase experimental (vague trafficking with eastern rythems that have been used in music for decades is hardly experimental--which is itself one of the more irritating words in music discussion/critique) what he means is that it is a song that is defying the built in expectations of its listeners.

OK. Yes, both songs defied the expectations of its listeners. And both were received by many of the current fans at that time to be progressing in a sub-par direction.

Many thought Vitalogy defied expectations in the wrong direction.
No Code went even further in defying expectations and many more people thought this was the wrong direction.
Nothing as it Seems was another example of defying expectations, but by this point, I think most of those left were to open to it, although both Binaural & Riot Act certainly dropped more fans than they gained.
Avocado was the last worthy attempt at creating something meaningful (too bad it sounds like shit and they failed to connect the theme of the album)

The Fixer and Backspacer in general certainly defied the expectations of the remaining fans, but did it at the expense of attempting to craft a sound that attracted new ones. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but this is the first time that the band defied expectations in an attempt to gain fans. While this may have been a worthwhile effort for them at that stage, I don't think anyone can argue effectively that the new direction will be as memorable or longstanding as the previous attempts at expectation defiance. I still argue that the new direction was rooted in the desire to regain immediate popularity (or money, or acceptance, or whatever, all the same thing) as opposed to craft a type of music that has longevity or musical merit.

actually (where is McP when you need him) Backspacer produced pearl jam's two largest hits in many years, and when you control for the decline in record sales it was one of their best selling albums in many years. So you can probably make an argument that it did what it wanted to do. I'd also argue that it's certainly open to debate as to whether or not this artistic direction is any more or less meritorious than some of the albums that preceded it, which impressed some pearl jam fans and were non-events to the rest of the world (excluding Vitalogy). It's just different, and not what many of the good people of RM are looking for.

This will come as a shock to many people, but the artistic goal of backspacer and lightning bolt was not to sell records. The music matches the message, and what these albums have to say is no less (thematically) interesting than the albums that proceed them. It's just that these are albums whose sonic approach and appeal is more likely to reach out to a wider audience than the sullen, insular, or abrasive records that preceded them.

Yield was also an attempt to reach a wider audience, but the album is hardly reducible to that fact

I relish in the uproar people had over The Fixer. It reminds me alot of the uproar MANY people had when Spin the Black Circle came out, or when Who You Are came out. I was personally annoyed by Nothing As It Seems, cause it countered MY own fixed perception of the band at the time. I wised up and now realize that it's whatever the fuck the band wants it to be. If the band is not trying to be whatever the fuck they want to be, then I'll be disappointed, if that makes any sense. The Fixer was them irreverently just doing what appealed to them and made them excited. It wasn't a self-conscious "F--- You" to the fans, it was just them genuinely feeling something in the music and following through 100% and just going for it. Turns out it annoyed some people while others loved it. That's the sign they are doing something right, just like in the Vitalogy days .... annoy the fuck out of some people but doing something that pleases their core artistic desire, which in this case was making garagey power pop which is one of Ed's great passions. Respect the heck out of that.

VinylGuy wrote:

stip wrote:I don't think the fixer was an intentional fuck you to fans. Nor is a song like sirens. They're just songs people with a certain fixed idea of what pearl jam should sound like are likely going to react poorly too.

I agree. But in a way the fixer was as experimental as Who you are as a first single in 1996.

Yep. "Experimental" doesn't have to mean weird delayed guitar effects and extended left turn bridges and eastern instruments and shit. It can also mean meticulously crafted hooky power pop w/ a sheen. For this particular band and where it was within it's own history and where it was (and is) with it's fanbase, The Fixer was definitely a ballsy left turn in my book.

I was kind of stunned at how turned off many RM'ers were by the Fixer. I thought that song was a slam dunk, other than those slightly annoying processed uh huh huh huh's.

I really love the fixer. The guitar part really dos it for me. Such an interesting riff and rhythm nicely tied together by matt cameron and eds vocal lines. ITs a really strange guitar riff if you break it out. The song really isnt dumb and lowest common denominator.

Who you are is a way more simple tune with some interesting drums. I love who you are, but its hardly a tricky song - musically speaking.

One issue I think people have with backspacer is that (with some exceptions) guitarwise it's hardly their finest hour. But Matt and Jeff are just fantastic on this album, and I think in terms of writing vocal melodies this is as good as Ed has been. He basically dances or glides over every song.

stip wrote:

hlniv wrote:

stip wrote:I think when Vinylguy is using the phrase experimental (vague trafficking with eastern rythems that have been used in music for decades is hardly experimental--which is itself one of the more irritating words in music discussion/critique) what he means is that it is a song that is defying the built in expectations of its listeners.

OK. Yes, both songs defied the expectations of its listeners. And both were received by many of the current fans at that time to be progressing in a sub-par direction.

Many thought Vitalogy defied expectations in the wrong direction.
No Code went even further in defying expectations and many more people thought this was the wrong direction.
Nothing as it Seems was another example of defying expectations, but by this point, I think most of those left were to open to it, although both Binaural & Riot Act certainly dropped more fans than they gained.
Avocado was the last worthy attempt at creating something meaningful (too bad it sounds like shit and they failed to connect the theme of the album)

The Fixer and Backspacer in general certainly defied the expectations of the remaining fans, but did it at the expense of attempting to craft a sound that attracted new ones. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but this is the first time that the band defied expectations in an attempt to gain fans. While this may have been a worthwhile effort for them at that stage, I don't think anyone can argue effectively that the new direction will be as memorable or longstanding as the previous attempts at expectation defiance. I still argue that the new direction was rooted in the desire to regain immediate popularity (or money, or acceptance, or whatever, all the same thing) as opposed to craft a type of music that has longevity or musical merit.

actually (where is McP when you need him) Backspacer produced pearl jam's two largest hits in many years, and when you control for the decline in record sales it was one of their best selling albums in many years. So you can probably make an argument that it did what it wanted to do. I'd also argue that it's certainly open to debate as to whether or not this artistic direction is any more or less meritorious than some of the albums that preceded it, which impressed some pearl jam fans and were non-events to the rest of the world (excluding Vitalogy). It's just different, and not what many of the good people of RM are looking for.

This will come as a shock to many people, but the artistic goal of backspacer and lightning bolt was not to sell records. The music matches the message, and what these albums have to say is no less (thematically) interesting than the albums that proceed them. It's just that these are albums whose sonic approach and appeal is more likely to reach out to a wider audience than the sullen, insular, or abrasive records that preceded them.

Yield was also an attempt to reach a wider audience, but the album is hardly reducible to that fact

I'm sure neither of us want to get back into this debate, we've been through it many times. But, in response-

I never said Backspacer (and by extension, LB) didn't achieve their goals, assuming the goals were to sell records. I agree it did just that, relatively speaking in this new digital age. You seem to agree, as you say there is an argument that BS "did what it wanted to". My point is that making this their goal for these two albums, they were guided by different motivations than any of their other new directions, or the other examples of them "defying expectations". At one of the Worcester shows in 2013, Ed made a big deal out of how much LB had sold by its opening day and all the countries where it was #1. Clearly, selling records was their goal. Again, nothing wrong with that, just this isn't a goal for which the band I grew to love in the mid-90's would ever strive. Maybe they went for this in the early 90's, but certainly not once they reached their peak level of popularity. And having this as such a clear goal, is an obvious demarcation between the Pearl Jam a lot of us were huge fans of (and still are), and the Pearl Jam that has become a caricature of itself. Was the "artistic goal" of Backspacer to sell records? No, there was no "artistic goal", however you want to define that. The only goal was to release something commercially successful.

Yield, and to an extent Avocado, were also attempts to reach a wider audience. But, the core difference is that both of these albums (as you said above) are not reducible to this and only this. Backspacer and Lightning Bolt clearly are reducible to this and only this, in my opinion. There was still something else going in with the songs on Yield (and maybe Avocado) that built from more than just an attempt at commercial success, even if this was a secondary goal or by-product.

But, I think at the end of all of the discussion, it really just boils down to whether or not you like the songs. You certainly do, and others do as well. For the most part, I don't, and that's what makes us human beings so darn neat.

"The Fixer" could have easily been a Foo Fighters song. That's how "experimental" it is.

Tuolumne wrote:I relish in the uproar people had over The Fixer. It reminds me alot of the uproar MANY people had when Spin the Black Circle came out, or when Who You Are came out. I was personally annoyed by Nothing As It Seems, cause it countered MY own fixed perception of the band at the time. I wised up and now realize that it's whatever the fuck the band wants it to be. If the band is not trying to be whatever the fuck they want to be, then I'll be disappointed, if that makes any sense. The Fixer was them irreverently just doing what appealed to them and made them excited. It wasn't a self-conscious "F--- You" to the fans, it was just them genuinely feeling something in the music and following through 100% and just going for it. Turns out it annoyed some people while others loved it. That's the sign they are doing something right, just like in the Vitalogy days .... annoy the fuck out of some people but doing something that pleases their core artistic desire, which in this case was making garagey power pop which is one of Ed's great passions. Respect the heck out of that.

Yeah, me too. I was shocked to see how many pj fans still dont get that with this band. I still remember No Code.."the worst pj album ever"...

stip wrote:I was kind of stunned at how turned off many RM'ers were by the Fixer. I thought that song was a slam dunk, other than those slightly annoying processed uh huh huh huh's.

I hated when it came out. I thought eddie didnt sound good, i thought it was like wws part 2...it took me a while to digest it.
The same happened with other singles, like Nothing as it seems for example.

theplatypus wrote:"The Fixer" could have easily been a Foo Fighters song. That's how "experimental" it is.

Exactly!

I think it depends on your outlook, whether it is cynical or more optimistic. I think these are valid points, but if true, I don't think they are unrepresentative of the band. Look back at the Ten days, their very early stretches when they wanted to gain and engage with an audience. They were DYING for fans, desparately. This wasn't a band that didn't want fans, it's just the hysteria got out of control in the mid-90s (hence Vitalogy). It wasn't necessarily to just make a buck (which admittedly is always *part* of the reason), they just wanted fans they could connect with in an exciting an engaging way.

I personally think the fanbase was growing very stale and boring by the mid-2000's. In fact, I still think there's fans in the doldrums (which can explain some of my more confrontational posts). I think something like The Fixer and Backspacer took the fanbase out of the doldrums. I think Lightning Bolt continued some of that, and I think the most recent tour was really successful and keeping the show exciting (moving to GA pissed off exactly the people I was personally tired of, the people with seniority who fold their arms in the front row). The band just didn't want to ride off into old age without trying something that was exciting. Putting out something like another Riot Act or Binaural would have bored me. The Fixer gave me a jolt that was reminsicent of Who You Are or STBC.

I think The Fixer and Backspacer (and to a lesser extent Lightning Bolt) successfully shook the fans from the doldrums (whether they liked it or not).

Tuolumne wrote:I think it depends on your outlook, whether it is cynical or more optimistic. I think these are valid points, but if true, I don't think they are unrepresentative of the band. Look back at the Ten days, their very early stretches when they wanted to gain and engage with an audience. They were DYING for fans, desparately. This wasn't a band that didn't want fans, it's just the hysteria got out of control in the mid-90s (hence Vitalogy). It wasn't necessarily to just make a buck (which admittedly is always *part* of the reason), they just wanted fans they could connect with in an exciting an engaging way.

I personally think the fanbase was growing very stale and boring by the mid-2000's. In fact, I still think there's fans in the doldrums (which can explain some of my more confrontational posts). I think something like The Fixer and Backspacer took the fanbase out of the doldrums. I think Lightning Bolt continued some of that, and I think the most recent tour was really successful and keeping the show exciting (moving to GA pissed off exactly the people I was personally tired of, the people with seniority who fold their arms in the front row). The band just didn't want to ride off into old age without trying something that was exciting. Putting out something like another Riot Act or Binaural would have bored me. The Fixer gave me a jolt that was reminsicent of Who You Are or STBC.

I think The Fixer and Backspacer (and to a lesser extent Lightning Bolt) successfully shook the fans from the doldrums (whether they liked it or not).

I don't disagree that a "shock to the system" was needed. I just wish that shock wasn't just a shinier, more compact version of things they've done before.

i bet stip eats chicken wings with a knife and a fork

I love the chorus of Gonna See My Friend...the background low vocals are really nice. Reminds me of what Cornell does mixing his own low and high pitched vocals.