Red Mosquito

Best trade was for Pedro. On and off the field, it's hard to believe that they'll ever get a bigger return on investment in any trade in our lifetime.

Coach wrote:Best trade was for Pedro. On and off the field, it's hard to believe that they'll ever get a bigger return on investment in any trade in our lifetime.

I have this weird obsession with following how trades continue to impact a team, so I just did a quick search and realized that the Red Sox used the compensation pick awarded by Pedro leaving for the Mets to draft Clay Buchholz.

philpritchard wrote:

Coach wrote:Best trade was for Pedro. On and off the field, it's hard to believe that they'll ever get a bigger return on investment in any trade in our lifetime.

I have this weird obsession with following how trades continue to impact a team, so I just did a quick search and realized that the Red Sox used the compensation pick awarded by Pedro leaving for the Mets to draft Clay Buchholz.

yeah, its the gift that keeps on giving.

The Pedro trade wasnt so egregiously one sided though. Pavano was a high end prospect and a respectable return for what Pedro was at the time. The Red Sox got the dodgers to take 3 horrid contracts, two clubhouse cancers of epic proportions, and gave prospects back in return!

I know we've been over this before and we'll probably always disagree, but you have literally no idea what players are like in the clubhouse (not you specifically, just fans in general). Chances are any possible negative effect those players had has been massively overblown by Boston sucking last year and those players having been shipped out.

Well, I think the proof is in the pudding as far as what taking Beckett and Gonzalez out of that clubhouse goes.

numbers wrote:Well, I think the proof is in the pudding as far as what taking Beckett and Gonzalez out of that clubhouse goes.

I know this is the Red Sox thread, but let's talk about the Dodgers for a minute: I think the proof is in the pudding as far as adding Beckett and Gonzalez to that clubhouse goes.

Beckett and Gonzalez didn't make Lester and Buchholz suck last year. They didn't make the bullpen suck, either. They didn't make Ellsbury miss half the season. They didn't make Aaron Cook and Dice-K and Daniel Bard start 40 games. They're departure didn't cause John Lackey to suddenly rediscover his abilities.

There are real, tangible reasons why the Red Sox are better this year. That's not to diminish the impact of the trade... it cleared up all kinds of money that was wisely allocated to fill some glaring holes, and that has been one of the biggest reasons for the turnaround. The clubhouse thing is a nice little narrative, but it barely factors in to the turnaround at all.

numbers wrote:Well, I think the proof is in the pudding as far as what taking Beckett and Gonzalez out of that clubhouse goes.

I think Beckett was the most important change (for his influence on the other starters, specifically Lester and Buchholz)...Gonzalez was just a whiny bitch about almost everything, be it the intensity of the fans or having to play too many Sunday night games, or the press...just completely unlikeable

The most important thing was the job Cherington did in the offseason to bring in the right type of players, even if at the time it seemed he overpaid for them...Victorino, Napoli (hard to say this is an overpayment since it's a 1 year deal), Gomes (he's been worth every penny of that $5 million, never thought I'd say that), Ross (even though he's been hurt I like him an awful lot), Mike Carp, hell, even Stephen Drew has worked out to some degree (again, 1 year deal so who cares if he's overpaid?)

The only thing Cherington did wrong was getting Hanrahan...

philpritchard wrote:

numbers wrote:Well, I think the proof is in the pudding as far as what taking Beckett and Gonzalez out of that clubhouse goes.

I know this is the Red Sox thread, but let's talk about the Dodgers for a minute: I think the proof is in the pudding as far as adding Beckett and Gonzalez to that clubhouse goes.

Beckett and Gonzalez didn't make Lester and Buchholz suck last year. They didn't make the bullpen suck, either. They didn't make Ellsbury miss half the season. They didn't make Aaron Cook and Dice-K and Daniel Bard start 40 games. They're departure didn't cause John Lackey to suddenly rediscover his abilities.

There are real, tangible reasons why the Red Sox are better this year. That's not to diminish the impact of the trade... it cleared up all kinds of money that was wisely allocated to fill some glaring holes, and that has been one of the biggest reasons for the turnaround. The clubhouse thing is a nice little narrative, but it barely factors in to the turnaround at all.

I could not possibly disagree more about the clubhouse, while acknowledging your other points...I mean, Bobby Valentine kind of says it all, doesn't it?

Farrell has got to be, by far, the best clubhouse addition this season.

What'd you all think about D-Lowe calling the game last night?

PS, everybody has to chill out about talking about Koji's streaks and such, or he is going to lose it in a really big spot.

Simple Torture wrote:What'd you all think about D-Lowe calling the game last night?

PS, everybody has to chill out about talking about Koji's streaks and such, or he is going to lose it in a really big spot.

is that who that was with Orsillo last night? I flipped back and forth to it a few times and I knew it was an ex player but I never heard them say who it actually was

I think he was pretty good on the whole from what I saw...I'm just enjoying the fact that I don't have to listen to Remy

I thought Lowe did a good job, considering it was first game. There was a point early in the game where Orsillo was having a coughing fit and Lowe stepped in and talked until Don was ready, that's pretty good for a guy doing his first game. He did a good job discussing pitching, and I think he was much better than any globe writer NESN could have plucked from the press box.

philpritchard wrote:

numbers wrote:Well, I think the proof is in the pudding as far as what taking Beckett and Gonzalez out of that clubhouse goes.

I know this is the Red Sox thread, but let's talk about the Dodgers for a minute: I think the proof is in the pudding as far as adding Beckett and Gonzalez to that clubhouse goes.

Beckett and Gonzalez didn't make Lester and Buchholz suck last year. They didn't make the bullpen suck, either. They didn't make Ellsbury miss half the season. They didn't make Aaron Cook and Dice-K and Daniel Bard start 40 games. They're departure didn't cause John Lackey to suddenly rediscover his abilities.

There are real, tangible reasons why the Red Sox are better this year. That's not to diminish the impact of the trade... it cleared up all kinds of money that was wisely allocated to fill some glaring holes, and that has been one of the biggest reasons for the turnaround. The clubhouse thing is a nice little narrative, but it barely factors in to the turnaround at all.

Actually, I do think Beckett was a major reason Lester sucked last year. His influence on that pitching staff was poisonous.

Theo basically ignored the human element when acquiring players the last 5 years or so and only considered advanced stats, and the end result was what you got last year. I dont care what Adrian Gonzalez' WAR is, I would rather have Mike Napolli, or hell, Mike Carp, on my team than him.

numbers wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

numbers wrote:Well, I think the proof is in the pudding as far as what taking Beckett and Gonzalez out of that clubhouse goes.

I know this is the Red Sox thread, but let's talk about the Dodgers for a minute: I think the proof is in the pudding as far as adding Beckett and Gonzalez to that clubhouse goes.

Beckett and Gonzalez didn't make Lester and Buchholz suck last year. They didn't make the bullpen suck, either. They didn't make Ellsbury miss half the season. They didn't make Aaron Cook and Dice-K and Daniel Bard start 40 games. They're departure didn't cause John Lackey to suddenly rediscover his abilities.

There are real, tangible reasons why the Red Sox are better this year. That's not to diminish the impact of the trade... it cleared up all kinds of money that was wisely allocated to fill some glaring holes, and that has been one of the biggest reasons for the turnaround. The clubhouse thing is a nice little narrative, but it barely factors in to the turnaround at all.

Actually, I do think Beckett was a major reason Lester sucked last year. His influence on that pitching staff was poisonous.

So what was Beckett's influence on Lester while they were teammates from 2008-2011?

philpritchard wrote:

numbers wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

numbers wrote:Well, I think the proof is in the pudding as far as what taking Beckett and Gonzalez out of that clubhouse goes.

I know this is the Red Sox thread, but let's talk about the Dodgers for a minute: I think the proof is in the pudding as far as adding Beckett and Gonzalez to that clubhouse goes.

Beckett and Gonzalez didn't make Lester and Buchholz suck last year. They didn't make the bullpen suck, either. They didn't make Ellsbury miss half the season. They didn't make Aaron Cook and Dice-K and Daniel Bard start 40 games. They're departure didn't cause John Lackey to suddenly rediscover his abilities.

There are real, tangible reasons why the Red Sox are better this year. That's not to diminish the impact of the trade... it cleared up all kinds of money that was wisely allocated to fill some glaring holes, and that has been one of the biggest reasons for the turnaround. The clubhouse thing is a nice little narrative, but it barely factors in to the turnaround at all.

Actually, I do think Beckett was a major reason Lester sucked last year. His influence on that pitching staff was poisonous.

So what was Beckett's influence on Lester while they were teammates from 2008-2011?

When Farrell was here, it wasnt bad. Once Farrell left, Beckett took over the pitching staff and turned them into the lazy degenerates he had become.

numbers wrote:When Farrell was here, it wasnt bad. Once Farrell left, Beckett took over the pitching staff and turned them into the lazy degenerates he had become.

Man, I wish the Jays had had a miracle worker like Farrell around last year to fix Ricky Romero!

philpritchard wrote:

numbers wrote:When Farrell was here, it wasnt bad. Once Farrell left, Beckett took over the pitching staff and turned them into the lazy degenerates he had become.

Man, I wish the Jays had had a miracle worker like Farrell around last year to fix Ricky Romero!

I'm not saying Farrell is a miracle worker, it's just he was a good authority figure as pitching coach. When he left, they brought in Curt Young and that string of guys they had last year and Beckett was essentially the authority figure.

numbers wrote:

philpritchard wrote:

numbers wrote:When Farrell was here, it wasnt bad. Once Farrell left, Beckett took over the pitching staff and turned them into the lazy degenerates he had become.

Man, I wish the Jays had had a miracle worker like Farrell around last year to fix Ricky Romero!

I'm not saying Farrell is a miracle worker, it's just he was a good authority figure as pitching coach. When he left, they brought in Curt Young and that string of guys they had last year and Beckett was essentially the authority figure.

But I think that perception only exists because the results were negative. You never hear about locker room issues on successful, winning teams. No one complained about Beckett and Gonzalez until September, 2011. Is that because winning teams don't have clubhouse issues? Of course it isn't. It's because the team is winning, so no one gives a shit.

Good clubhouses don't lead to winning teams. More often than not, winning teams lead to good clubhouses.