Red Mosquito

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:if you think "reasoning" is not something I'm literally doing in this thread I've got nothing more to say to you, but a difference of opinion is not a "lack of reason"

Your reasoning is not based on reality, it’s based on silly theories

"reason" is theory; and "silly" is subjective

you think any of us is in the position to go out and test our arguments and hypotheses here? absolute not; but some of us accept that we have feelings and opinions on the matter based on experience and exposure to ideas and experiences; others of us are deeply brainwashed into thinking we have the objective truth on everything

You're interpreting a very simple joke if you just look at what was said, basically, your hair is short, so is that hot girl in that movie, in 18 different theoretical directions, assuming each one worse than the next, instead of giving him a shred of benefit of the doubt. He might as well had just said, "you're as hot as GI Jane", if you read it that way.

it wasn't a simple joke; it wasn't simple at all; it was loaded; and Chris knew it was, and Will knew it was

you can't be a good comedian and demand that your audience just turn their brains off and refuse to have a variety of interpretations to what you say; if you want a "death of the author / death of the comedian" solution, where all that matters are the words that were said and not the intention behind them, then you have to accept that all the power in your "jokes" comes from audience perception and reaction

See, you don't know that though. You're making all kinds of assumptions about his intentions. I'm pretty sure he was just calling her hot. If he wanted to insult her he could have called her Shrek.

you think Tree from RM has the right to tell Jada Smith what she should be insulted by? you think that because you think she's hot like a GI Jane doll, everyone should just relax?

you want your interpretation of "the text" -- an interpretation that was no more explained or unpacked by Chris Rock than mine was -- to "win" over my interpret of the text, when in reality, we're just from wildly different perspectives in life

One perspective produces the benefit of peace, cooperation, understanding, friendship, while the other produces violence. Better be sure. I don't know his intentions any better than you, but probably better to be on the safe side.

onwards to your Utopia, Tree!

It's really not that hard to not smack people unless you're sure what they said.

It’s also just not that hard to refrain from smacking people.

Also to not make a big scene out of it. Like - it would make more sense if they were at a party and Chris rock made the joke standing nest to them and then will smacked him. But…

I probably would have cried if I were Rock.

Don't get me wrong, if Rock had outright insulted her, say, called her something like an ugly n word, I'd be onboard with a good smackin', and Will Smith would be a hero to many. But we all know that's not the case. What he said was ambiguous at best to warrant such a reaction.

tree_ wrote:It's really not that hard to not smack people unless you're sure what they said.

dude had a mic; we're all sure what he said, I just don't think we were all privvy to Tree from RM's interpretation of it; maybe they should sort that out for the next Oscars, set up some satellite feed to your account or something; only then can civility be maintained

All just make sure when your significant other asks you say yes you'd smack someone too if they insulted them.

tree_ wrote:Don't get me wrong, if Rock had outright insulted her, say, called her something like an ugly n word, I'd be onboard with a good smackin', and Will Smith would be a hero to many. But we all know that's not the case. What he said was ambiguous at best to warrant such a reaction.

no you wouldn't

The Argonaut wrote:

washing machine wrote:

The Argonaut wrote:

washing machine wrote:Argo, do you take a similar stance when a ballplayer charges a mound?

I thought about this last night, actually. I see a difference. Athletes are in some real way already putting their bodies on the line and are in that mindset, so when sports turns physical it's different.
It's a little bullshit in baseball, so I'm glad those fights rarely escalate. But I understand when hockey or soccer or basketball players who have been competing and physically pushing and struggling with each other start fighting. It's different than just sitting in a chair

I see the difference. There's no real "consent" in either instance, but pro athletes do at least have that idea that they could enter a fight during a game in their mind and there are unwritten rules of engagement (ie don't bring a bat, don't actually hurt someone, benches must clear...)

In the real world, like in baseball, you can easily get dinged for saying something stupid -- and that's what happened. Baseball players know this in games, but adults should know this in life. Chris Rock handled himself very well. His non-reaction is the measured, adult response to Smith's childish, reactionary move. I do believe, however, that he was shocked because he as a Hollywood celeb got a small taste of the real world consequences for "offensive" speech as opposed to the decorum that "should" have happened. I can't get over people being surprised by any of this.

And now that I think of it, Will Smith's reaction is a lot closer to a pitcher being petty and throwing at a batter for something that happened earlier in an at-bat/game/season/career.

There are rules of engagement in stand-up comedy, too. One of them is don't hit the performer. Don't even go up on the stage. Some degree of heckling is permitted, from one's seat. If Will Smith can't handle the rules he shouldn't go to the show

I can't disagree here. Score one for the "what have you been wrong" about thread.

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:It's really not that hard to not smack people unless you're sure what they said.

dude had a mic; we're all sure what he said, I just don't think we were all privvy to Tree from RM's interpretation of it; maybe they should sort that out for the next Oscars, set up some satellite feed to your account or something; only then can civility be maintained

Uh... I don't think you are sure. He said, "your hair is short, so is GI Jane's"

GI Jane isn't even bald. It isn't even clear Rock knew she had hereditary balding. She looks good. Hard to insult someone attractive for their looks, isn't it?

Strat wrote:It’s also just not that hard to refrain from smacking people.

Also to not make a big scene out of it. Like - it would make more sense if they were at a party and Chris rock made the joke standing nest to them and then will smacked him. But…

so again the issue is reduced to "they were on TV and that makes this morally bad because I think there's something innately sacred about television for some reason"?

Ms Harmless wrote:

Mickey wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

Mickey wrote:Reading Will Smith smacking Chris Rock as "resistance" is exactly the sort of pigeon-brain take you end up with when you discount how much money someone makes.

why? there are many issues here about power dynamics beyond rich and poor; I don't stop caring about ableism when a target has money

Because you have abstracted from the material context in order to find an object lesson for your particular interests, one which is not reflected in the situation as a whole in any meaningful way.

"as a whole"?

maybe you need to explain the "whole" situation as my response is coming from a clearly partial faulty extrapolation of the meaning of a joke; I'm clearly biased

Sure, it's pretty easy if we do a little thought experiment. Imagine Chris Rock's joke was not about Jada's medical condition (as you correctly have argued), but was rather about the longstanding rumors that she sleeps around. Imagine she still takes offense, Will charges the stage, slaps Chris, yells at him from the seats, and then wins his award and gives his little teary speech that was mostly about "protecting" the actresses on his film. What about this new situation--and particularly how Smith framed it to the crowd--would have to change from what actually happened in order to make it coherent? Absolutely nothing--because this was not "about" disability in any meaningful way. It was about Will Smith, his wife, his relationship to his wife, and his *insane* ego as a lunatic millionaire. Will Smith did not slap Chris Rock for ableism. He slapped him because Rock made a joke about his wife, and Will Smith has imagined himself to be the kind of rich asshole who gets to say "keep my wife's name out of your fucking mouth" and "Richard Williams protected his family."

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:It's really not that hard to not smack people unless you're sure what they said.

dude had a mic; we're all sure what he said, I just don't think we were all privvy to Tree from RM's interpretation of it; maybe they should sort that out for the next Oscars, set up some satellite feed to your account or something; only then can civility be maintained

Uh... I don't think you are sure. He said, "your hair is short, so is GI Jane's"

GI Jane isn't even bald. It isn't even clear Rock knew she had hereditary balding. She looks good. Hard to insult someone attractive for their looks, isn't it?

"it's hard to insult someone attractive for their looks"

do you even acknowledge the existence of misogyny? finding someone hot isn't allyship

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:It's really not that hard to not smack people unless you're sure what they said.

dude had a mic; we're all sure what he said, I just don't think we were all privvy to Tree from RM's interpretation of it; maybe they should sort that out for the next Oscars, set up some satellite feed to your account or something; only then can civility be maintained

Uh... I don't think you are sure. He said, "your hair is short, so is GI Jane's"

GI Jane isn't even bald. It isn't even clear Rock knew she had hereditary balding. She looks good. Hard to insult someone attractive for their looks, isn't it?

"it's hard to insult someone attractive for their looks"

do you even acknowledge the existence of misogyny? finding someone hot isn't allyship

Am I in the Twilight Zone? Calling someone hot is not an insult.

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:It's really not that hard to not smack people unless you're sure what they said.

dude had a mic; we're all sure what he said, I just don't think we were all privvy to Tree from RM's interpretation of it; maybe they should sort that out for the next Oscars, set up some satellite feed to your account or something; only then can civility be maintained

Uh... I don't think you are sure. He said, "your hair is short, so is GI Jane's"

GI Jane isn't even bald. It isn't even clear Rock knew she had hereditary balding. She looks good. Hard to insult someone attractive for their looks, isn't it?

"it's hard to insult someone attractive for their looks"

do you even acknowledge the existence of misogyny? finding someone hot isn't allyship

Am I in the Twilight Zone? Calling someone hot is not an insult.

Nothing women like more than after they feel insulted by something you say you tell them "but it was a compliment baby" lol.

bada wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:It's really not that hard to not smack people unless you're sure what they said.

dude had a mic; we're all sure what he said, I just don't think we were all privvy to Tree from RM's interpretation of it; maybe they should sort that out for the next Oscars, set up some satellite feed to your account or something; only then can civility be maintained

Uh... I don't think you are sure. He said, "your hair is short, so is GI Jane's"

GI Jane isn't even bald. It isn't even clear Rock knew she had hereditary balding. She looks good. Hard to insult someone attractive for their looks, isn't it?

"it's hard to insult someone attractive for their looks"

do you even acknowledge the existence of misogyny? finding someone hot isn't allyship

Am I in the Twilight Zone? Calling someone hot is not an insult.

Nothing women like more than after they feel insulted by something you say you tell them "but it was a compliment baby" lol.

or a bald black woman. tree keeps ignoring this point lol

bada wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:It's really not that hard to not smack people unless you're sure what they said.

dude had a mic; we're all sure what he said, I just don't think we were all privvy to Tree from RM's interpretation of it; maybe they should sort that out for the next Oscars, set up some satellite feed to your account or something; only then can civility be maintained

Uh... I don't think you are sure. He said, "your hair is short, so is GI Jane's"

GI Jane isn't even bald. It isn't even clear Rock knew she had hereditary balding. She looks good. Hard to insult someone attractive for their looks, isn't it?

"it's hard to insult someone attractive for their looks"

do you even acknowledge the existence of misogyny? finding someone hot isn't allyship

Am I in the Twilight Zone? Calling someone hot is not an insult.

Nothing women like more than after they feel insulted by something you say you tell them "but it was a compliment baby" lol.

Wait... is GI Jane hot? "You look like GI Jane"... alright! I'll take it. Where's the insult? She pulls off short hair very well.

warehouse wrote:

bada wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:It's really not that hard to not smack people unless you're sure what they said.

dude had a mic; we're all sure what he said, I just don't think we were all privvy to Tree from RM's interpretation of it; maybe they should sort that out for the next Oscars, set up some satellite feed to your account or something; only then can civility be maintained

Uh... I don't think you are sure. He said, "your hair is short, so is GI Jane's"

GI Jane isn't even bald. It isn't even clear Rock knew she had hereditary balding. She looks good. Hard to insult someone attractive for their looks, isn't it?

"it's hard to insult someone attractive for their looks"

do you even acknowledge the existence of misogyny? finding someone hot isn't allyship

Am I in the Twilight Zone? Calling someone hot is not an insult.

Nothing women like more than after they feel insulted by something you say you tell them "but it was a compliment baby" lol.

or a bald black woman. tree keeps ignoring this point lol

please explain it to me cause I clearly don't understand

Mickey wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

Mickey wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

Mickey wrote:Reading Will Smith smacking Chris Rock as "resistance" is exactly the sort of pigeon-brain take you end up with when you discount how much money someone makes.

why? there are many issues here about power dynamics beyond rich and poor; I don't stop caring about ableism when a target has money

Because you have abstracted from the material context in order to find an object lesson for your particular interests, one which is not reflected in the situation as a whole in any meaningful way.

"as a whole"?

maybe you need to explain the "whole" situation as my response is coming from a clearly partial faulty extrapolation of the meaning of a joke; I'm clearly biased

Sure, it's pretty easy if we do a little thought experiment. Imagine Chris Rock's joke was not about Jada's medical condition (as you correctly have argued), but was rather about the longstanding rumors that she sleeps around. Imagine she still takes offense, Will charges the stage, slaps Chris, yells at him from the seats, and then wins his award and gives his little teary speech that was mostly about "protecting" the actresses on his film. What about this new situation--and particularly how Smith framed it to the crowd--would have to change from what actually happened in order to make it coherent? Absolutely nothing--because this was not "about" disability in any meaningful way. It was about Will Smith, his wife, his relationship to his wife, and his *insane* ego as a lunatic millionaire. Will Smith did not slap Chris Rock for ableism. He slapped him because Rock made a joke about his wife, and Will Smith has imagined himself to be the kind of rich asshole who gets to say "keep my wife's name out of your fucking mouth" and "Richard Williams protected his family."

you have no more evidence for your feelings than I do, but I hope you enjoyed typing your thought experiment out; you're essentially asking me "if we can reasonably reduce your claims to complexity down to my claims to simplicity, then wash our hands and be done with it, shouldn't we?", and I'm arguing no, we shouldn't

your argument is "Will Smith is a rich egomaniac and that's where it starts and stops"; and that's fine, but I vehemently disagree

tree_ wrote:

bada wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:

Ms Harmless wrote:

tree_ wrote:It's really not that hard to not smack people unless you're sure what they said.

dude had a mic; we're all sure what he said, I just don't think we were all privvy to Tree from RM's interpretation of it; maybe they should sort that out for the next Oscars, set up some satellite feed to your account or something; only then can civility be maintained

Uh... I don't think you are sure. He said, "your hair is short, so is GI Jane's"

GI Jane isn't even bald. It isn't even clear Rock knew she had hereditary balding. She looks good. Hard to insult someone attractive for their looks, isn't it?

"it's hard to insult someone attractive for their looks"

do you even acknowledge the existence of misogyny? finding someone hot isn't allyship

Am I in the Twilight Zone? Calling someone hot is not an insult.

Nothing women like more than after they feel insulted by something you say you tell them "but it was a compliment baby" lol.

Wait... is GI Jane hot? "You look like GI Jane"... alright! I'll take it. Where's the insult? She pulls off short hair very well.

You know how after your kid asks why 100 times you say because that's why...because that's why.