Red Mosquito

Birds in Hell wrote:I know we've done these arguments to death several times now and there's nothing new to say.

I guess I really enjoy contrary takes on things I enjoy. It seems kind of essential to subject my preferences to a kind of trial by fire, a stress test. I think I'm always naturally sceptical of things I enjoy, like there's an uphill battle to convince myself I haven't made an embarrassing error. It often helps shape and refine why I like what I do, and what in particular grabs me; it could well be what repels someone else.

If hearing someone say "hey, this album sucks and I suspect you'll soon mostly agree" causes you to doubt the intensity of your feelings, maybe linger and explore that sense of doubt for a while!

This critique is not usually about the integrity of someone's individual love and appreciation for something (especially when there is broad enjoyment around something so it's not a gaslighting set of circumstances) as much as it is harder to enjoy something when someone keeps poking their head in to say "hey this sucks and soon you'll think so too" which, regardless of intent, does carry with it the subtext that you are stupid for liking something and will eventually come to your senses. It is mosquito's showing up to your camping trip.

And to say "my comments should not impact how other people feel about something" ignores how conversation, dialogue, and shared spaces work. The nature of communication is that the things you say are heard, processed by, and impact other people.

Please note that this is not the same thing as saying "I don't care for this album because I don't like the production" or "I think the heavier songs are not up to their usual standard" or even "I hate that Elton John song". Those are contributions to a conversation that give people something to think about and respond to.

It's been pretty tame in this thread. People broadly like Earthling, there is space for critique, and the 'this is dumb and you're dumb for thinking it' crowd is just the usual suspects and feels performative. So I don't think it's really a problem here and now. But as someone who watched RM completely shut down spaces where you could have meaningful (not even positive) conversations about Backspacer and Lightning Bolt, it's certainly a thing.

stip wrote: ... the 'this is dumb and you're dumb for thinking it' crowd is just the usual suspects and feels performative

I don't think this has happened though - where are these malicious hate posts?

People voiced some mild criticism in a partially tongue-in-cheek manner (after 200+ pages of almost relentless praise!) and the reaction seems bizarrely disproportionate.

I've said I hate the album and that's true (if knowingly hyperbolic), but I also feel like you all know me well enough that I don't have to spell that out in grand detail.

stip wrote:And to say "my comments should not impact how other people feel about something" ignores how conversation, dialogue, and shared spaces work. The nature of communication is that the things you say are heard, processed by, and impact other people.

I thought I was pretty clear in acknowledging critical posts could impact others, but that I think that could be a good (or at least not bad) thing.

Birds in Hell wrote:

stip wrote: ... the 'this is dumb and you're dumb for thinking it' crowd is just the usual suspects and feels performative

I don't think this has happened though - where are these malicious hate posts?

People voiced some mild criticism in a partially tongue-in-cheek manner (after 200+ pages of almost relentless praise!) and the reaction seems bizarrely disproportionate.

I've said I hate the album and that's true (if knowingly hyperbolic), but I also feel like you all know me well enough that I don't have to spell that out in grand detail.

stip wrote:And to say "my comments should not impact how other people feel about something" ignores how conversation, dialogue, and shared spaces work. The nature of communication is that the things you say are heard, processed by, and impact other people.

I thought I was pretty clear in acknowledging critical posts could impact others, but that I think that could be a good (or at least not bad) thing.

I was talking more broadly about why this can upset people. Like I said, there hasn't been too much of it in the Earthling thread, and is relatively easy to ignore given the general positive vibes and more substantive engagement. This is a general conversation that we've had before, and that's what I'm responding to.

But if some people end up having the response Strat and others had, after a few relatively inoccuous comments, that should speak to the history of the behavior, the baggage it has generated, and the impact that it has.

And look, this is not about 'critical' posts, which no one complains about. That's a straw man. People welcome thoughtful engagement. This is about 'this sucks and you're dumb for thinking so' style posts (which are present in this thread too. I'm not going to go catalog them), and lumping those in with criticism (that's not criticism, it is enervating schtick at best, trolling at worst) shifts the focus away from the impact that kind of behavior has on other people. And perhaps you can find some kind of value in that posting, but do you recognize that independent of the value you may think it has it also causes harm (in the context of the forum and its function)?

Again, this kind of posting is one of the reasons (I think) why RM draws in so few new members, why people don't stay, and made it exceedingly difficult to enjoy talking about recent albums. I stopped posting, other than spurts here and there, for several years, and I have thick skin and invested hundreds of thousands of words into RM. The attitude can be relentless and it grinds you down.

I'm not sure what else to add, other than I think my experience and expectations of the board are fundamentally different.

The idea we should be worried about attracting and retaining new members seems completely perverse, it's a messageboard (an anachronism in itself) dedicated to Pearl Jam in 2022. We're like a bunch of marooned sailors at this point.

Blaming the lack of in-depth discussions about the band's recent music on the attitudes of existing posters rather than - well, you know - seems completely backwards.

We're on about the thousandth iteration of this debate by now, so I sense there's little point persisting further. I felt I've already spent way too long doing so today, out of quite genuine bemusement.

Birds in Hell wrote:I know we've done these arguments to death several times now and there's nothing new to say.

I guess I really enjoy contrary takes on things I enjoy. It seems kind of essential to subject my preferences to a kind of trial by fire, a stress test. I think I'm always naturally sceptical of things I enjoy, like there's an uphill battle to convince myself I haven't made an embarrassing error. It often helps shape and refine why I like what I do, and what in particular grabs me; it could well be what repels someone else.

If hearing someone say "hey, this album sucks and I suspect you'll soon mostly agree" causes you to doubt the intensity of your feelings, maybe linger and explore that sense of doubt for a while!

I get what you're saying here to a degree, but I think most of us are really sick and tired of lingering and/or exploring any sense of doubt in the environment of pandemic fatigue. That's why Earthling came at the right time and is done in the right style - immediate and fun with a touch of import. Exactly what I/we need to hear right now. Save the doubt lingering for another day.

In My Tree is dumb and people who like it are dumb for liking it

I really cant wait for the vinyl and guess what? i have a wait a lot.

Those who got the cd, how r those liner notes? I wanna see who is playing what

VinylGuy wrote:I really cant wait for the vinyl and guess what? i have a wait a lot.

Those who got the cd, how r those liner notes? I wanna see who is playing what

There's not much to them -- certainly way bare bones compared to any other PJ/EV release. Credits are here though!
https://www.discogs.com/release/2211546 ... -Earthling

great thank you

tragabigzanda wrote:In My Tree is dumb and people who like it are dumb for liking it

I’ve been saying this

is watt playing the guitar solos?

yeah I think so

Birds in Hell wrote:like there's an uphill battle to convince myself I haven't made an embarrassing error.

I don't understand this at all. An embarrassing error? Like, there are things you *should* like and things you *shouldn't* and guilty pleasures are things to be ashamed of? Screw that. I deeply enjoy Dave Matthews Band. Ban me if you want.

RockPusher wrote:I deeply enjoy Dave Matthews Band. Ban me if you want.

Mods?

RockPusher wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:like there's an uphill battle to convince myself I haven't made an embarrassing error.

I don't understand this at all. An embarrassing error? Like, there are things you *should* like and things you *shouldn't* and guilty pleasures are things to be ashamed of? Screw that. I deeply enjoy Dave Matthews Band. Ban me if you want.

my new favorite poster

warehouse wrote:

RockPusher wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:like there's an uphill battle to convince myself I haven't made an embarrassing error.

I don't understand this at all. An embarrassing error? Like, there are things you *should* like and things you *shouldn't* and guilty pleasures are things to be ashamed of? Screw that. I deeply enjoy Dave Matthews Band. Ban me if you want.

my new favorite poster

warehouse alt-account confirmed.

I feel such shame for having loved Vanilla Ice when i was 10

Strat wrote:I feel such shame for having loved Vanilla Ice when i was 10

I saw him in concert!

Strat wrote:I feel such shame for having loved Vanilla Ice when i was 10

Dude! Hard disagree! At 43, still being able to recite Ice, Ice, Baby word for word is a definite triumph.

But did you believe him in the MTV interview when he claimed that his song and Under Pressure were totally different: “ding-DING-ding-ding-dinga-ding-ding”