Red Mosquito

blueviper wrote:The internet in general has destroyed SW , and a lot of other pop culture people hold dear.

The real problem is that when a story triggers a powerful reaction inside you…like, it feels really and truly special…your gut reaction shouldn’t be “keep giving me more of this until the end of time.” It should be “wow, that was awesome. I hope I find another story that does that for me.”

We have wasted so many years of this generation of movie makers, TV writers, etc. on sustaining ideas from a previous generation. It puts them in a curator position. It affects how they perceive their own work. And I think it’s fine too go back to an old sandbox and play in it from time to time, if the creative talents involved have a spark of inspiration and a passion for the story they want to tell (versus a passion for the story they’re launching out of). But it should be the exception rather than the rule. Doing the same thing over and over again is how a culture stagnates.

But that change has to come from people, because as long as the people are willing to go back to the same well over and over again…that well is going to seem financially lucrative to big business. It feels “safe” as an investment, relative to new ideas. And new ideas become less and less a part of our story.

People shouldn’t worship pop culture. It’s just companies trying to get your money

I agree about the second part, but I don’t think people worship pop culture. I don’t think that’s a fair view of people.

I think that we all feel more and more disconnected and alone in the 21st century, and we’ve become addicted to the feeling of being excited about something online together. Feeling hype together with people on the Internet. or to trying to predict who the mystery bad guy is together, or what’s gonna happen next season. It gives us a modicum of the togetherness that community used to bring, and it generally requires the familiarity of old ideas because it allows us all to start from a point of shared background knowledge.

6. Adults should grow up and stop buying toys.

Big disagree. Adults growing up is the problem.

Growing up is a reduction of the soul. It’s the worst kind of cynical act, because it is so proud of its cynicism. It gatekeeps. It looks at someone else’s joy and, with disgust in its voice, it says “you need to grow up.” Growing up means seeking accomplishment-based evidence of self-worth. Growing up means taking pride in how successful you are inside the system.

Pretend is about dreaming. Pretend is about a better tomorrow, and about analyzing complex feelings by placing them in a story you can set yourself apart from. Pretend is about imagination and hope.

Adults need to pretend more, and spend less time asking to be reminded what it felt like to pretend when they were young.

I don't always agree with McP but when I do, it's with my whole heart.

McParadigm wrote:I think that we all feel more and more disconnected and alone in the 21st century, and we’ve become addicted to the feeling of being excited about something online together. Feeling hype together with people on the Internet. or to trying to predict who the mystery bad guy is together, or what’s gonna happen next season. It gives us a modicum of the togetherness that community used to bring, and it generally requires the familiarity of old ideas because it allows us all to start from a point of shared background knowledge.

This is especially true for me. Well said.

And I think it's why I'm so often frustrated with this subforum and why I've walked away from it for such long stretches. It's not RM's fault, it's mine. This isn't the place for the kind of conversation I'm craving.

epilogue wrote:

McParadigm wrote:I think that we all feel more and more disconnected and alone in the 21st century, and we’ve become addicted to the feeling of being excited about something online together. Feeling hype together with people on the Internet. or to trying to predict who the mystery bad guy is together, or what’s gonna happen next season. It gives us a modicum of the togetherness that community used to bring, and it generally requires the familiarity of old ideas because it allows us all to start from a point of shared background knowledge.

This is especially true for me. Well said.

And I think it's why I'm so often frustrated with this subforum and why I've walked away from it for such long stretches. It's not RM's fault, it's mine. This isn't the place for the kind of conversation I'm craving.

I know I’m a big part of the tainting of that for you here, and I don’t like to be. But I also enjoy discussing things with people who disagree with me and will push back. If I’m going to talk about why I think a thing is bad, the person I most want to do it with someone who’s going to say “ok but can you tell me what you DO like about it,” and will also consider what I’m saying without being dismissive. Unfortunately for you, no one does that better than you do.

You’re why I spend long periods of time away from the Star Wars subforum, and also why I occasionally come back for stretches of time like this.

tragabigzanda wrote:I wouldn't equate the repeated digestion of derivative pop culture with "pretending,"

That’s not what I said.

Pretending happens when you're in the band, in the community theater, writing the story, playing dress up with your kids, engrossed in a great video game. Pretending requires engagement, and most TV and movies are, by design, wholly passive forms of media.

This is a very grown up approach and understanding

tragabigzanda wrote:Pretending happens when you're in the band, in the community theater, writing the story, playing dress up with your kids, engrossed in a great video game. Pretending requires engagement, and most TV and movies are, by design, wholly passive forms of media.

We consume movies and tv differently.

Day dreaming, thinking, fantasizing, all methods of pretending that can be quite engaging. There are other types of engagement than just physical.

McParadigm wrote:I know I’m a big part of the tainting of that for you here, and I don’t like to be. But I also enjoy discussing things with people who disagree with me and will push back. If I’m going to talk about why I think a thing is bad, the person I most want to do it with someone who’s going to say “ok but can you tell me what you DO like about it,” and will also consider what I’m saying without being dismissive. Unfortunately for you, no one does that better than you do.

You’re why I spend long periods of time away from the Star Wars subforum, and also why I occasionally come back for stretches of time like this.

I really appreciate this. Thank you. FTR, you're not a big part of my taint ( ). We don't agree all the time and I'm hyper sensitive and sometimes your clever barbs read to me as condescending and your quippy dismissals read as insults. But I know that's on, again, on me.

You're usually here in good faith, and honestly, mostly super funny when I can get out of my head about it. I like the pushback and I like that we can disagree. I don't want everyone to agree with me, I just want respectful engagement.

React, Respond (yes the Pearl Jam song!) has really helped reset how I engage here. Which is probably silly, but look who you're talking to.

I look forward to more discussions here -- with everyone, really -- but especially with you.

I can't help but wonder if there was a huge missed opportunity with a Gen X and millennial obsession with franchises.

Like maybe there was something potentially world altering about artists and fans creating these entire worlds and culture from art. But unfortunately it coincided with the corporatization of it all.

And now I look at the ruins of these franchises and see nothing but calculation, homogenization and utter soullessness. Products made by walking, talking creative voids and yes-men.

In conclusion, destroy intellectual property rights.

For all the things I disagree with in these conversations, the idea I'm totally onboard with is that corporatization has harmed these things. Specifically in the branding/marketing of it all. These companies believe a thing has to look/feel/behave a certain way and it can't deviate to much. And that's a bummer. Star Wars doesn't have to be just ONE thing.

There are certain ingredients that are there in the best Star War stuff: a mix of old and new, pulp, and mythology. Not all of it needs to be all of those things, though. I like the serial space adventure aspect --- it's why all the planet jumping in The Acolyte doesn't bug me, for example. But I also love Andor, which took it's time and rested in places, abandoning the serial adventure aspect. And it worked. Because it still had some of the other ingredient, chiefly that mixture of old and new.

But it does feel like Lucasfilm is afraid that if it stretches too far in unknown directions (talking style/genre/etc) it'll be damaging to the "product."

epilogue wrote:sometimes your clever barbs read to me as condescending and your quippy dismissals read as insults. But I know that's on, again, on me.

We’ve been together on this message board for so long that sometimes I use the same sarcasm I would use when talking to someone in real life who knows me and would know better.

Case in point, earlier I said I genuinely love it when people on the Internet make up bullshit excuses for things like “maybe they built their coven in a volcano made out of flammable rock.” Afterwards, I realized that that sounded nakedly backhanded. But I like Star Trek for fuck’s sake, and that’s built on bullshit.

Anybody who knows me would recognize that sentence as sort of poking fun at myself, and would know that I really do enjoy the “we’ll workshop this into making sense” aspect of fanbases. I like the “all hands on deck” attitude. I like pretend. Absurdity is never funner or funnier to me than when it is matched with straight-faced earnestness.

But after being on this message board for… I don’t want to think about how long…the line kind of blurs sometimes, and I use the same language I would use in real life even though the resulting message doesn’t read the same. That’s something I’m working on.

Fair and understandable, McP. I'll certainly keep that in mind. God knows I've run into the same issue here many times myself.

Back to sucky tv Star Wars....

I think the main reason I'm able to keep enjoying (and maybe even keep apologizing?) for this stuff is that I'm really attracted to lore and mythology. Maybe the dialogue is clunky and maybe the acting is stiff and maybe the FVX look like a cartoon, and maybe I can't tell where they spent $180 million.... but OH SHIT THERE'S A COVEN OF WITCHES THAT USE THE FORCE BUT CALL IT THE THREAD AND WERE HUNTED INTO EXILE AND HOLY SHIT THEY MANAGED TO CREATE LIFE OUTSIDE OF CONCEPTION WHICH IS SOMETHING THE SITH HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO FOR CENTURIES! OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH....

How is this gonna play out! What does this mean for what we thought we knew about the Star Wars mythology?! Does this tie into Anakin at all? And what the actual fuck actually happened during that fire?!

I'm a plot sucker, or rather a sucker for plot. I love world building, even if it comes with subpar character building. Ideally, I'd love to have both --- The Last Jedi, I'm looking right at you! But I have a higher tolerance for the mediocre stuff when the lore/mythology/world building ignites my synapses.

Also, have we talked about the "heads I win, tales you lose" aspect of Osha and Mae's little rhyme?

Mae: "I give you you."
Osha: "And you give me me."

Um... that's the same thing. If one of them said both lines that would be different. But they're both saying the same exact thing. There's no connection or sharing or reciprocity there.

Feels like a clue...

tragabigzanda wrote:

epilogue wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:Pretending happens when you're in the band, in the community theater, writing the story, playing dress up with your kids, engrossed in a great video game. Pretending requires engagement, and most TV and movies are, by design, wholly passive forms of media.

We consume movies and tv differently.

Day dreaming, thinking, fantasizing, all methods of pretending that can be quite engaging. There are other types of engagement than just physical.

I almost included a bit about how it's probably different if you work in the arts, or are otherwise deeply engaged to the extent that you're processing the media through that part of your brain that also creates media. That's how it is with music for me, so I totally get it.

McP, your posts on this are very interesting, but you seem to walk right up to the issue without actually going there. Kinda strange.

McParadigm wrote:

blueviper wrote:The internet in general has destroyed SW , and a lot of other pop culture people hold dear.

The real problem is that when a story triggers a powerful reaction inside you…like, it feels really and truly special…your gut reaction shouldn’t be “keep giving me more of this until the end of time.” It should be “wow, that was awesome. I hope I find another story that does that for me.”

We have wasted so many years of this generation of movie makers, TV writers, etc. on sustaining ideas from a previous generation. It puts them in a curator position. It affects how they perceive their own work. And I think it’s fine too go back to an old sandbox and play in it from time to time, if the creative talents involved have a spark of inspiration and a passion for the story they want to tell (versus a passion for the story they’re launching out of). But it should be the exception rather than the rule. Doing the same thing over and over again is how a culture stagnates.

But that change has to come from people, because as long as the people are willing to go back to the same well over and over again…that well is going to seem financially lucrative to big business. It feels “safe” as an investment, relative to new ideas. And new ideas become less and less a part of our story.

People shouldn’t worship pop culture. It’s just companies trying to get your money

I agree about the second part, but I don’t think people worship pop culture. I don’t think that’s a fair view of people.

I think that we all feel more and more disconnected and alone in the 21st century, and we’ve become addicted to the feeling of being excited about something online together. Feeling hype together with people on the Internet. or to trying to predict who the mystery bad guy is together, or what’s gonna happen next season. It gives us a modicum of the togetherness that community used to bring, and it generally requires the familiarity of old ideas because it allows us all to start from a point of shared background knowledge.

6. Adults should grow up and stop buying toys.

Big disagree. Adults growing up is the problem.

Growing up is a reduction of the soul. It’s the worst kind of cynical act, because it is so proud of its cynicism. It gatekeeps. It looks at someone else’s joy and, with disgust in its voice, it says “you need to grow up.” Growing up means seeking accomplishment-based evidence of self-worth. Growing up means taking pride in how successful you are inside the system.

Pretend is about dreaming. Pretend is about a better tomorrow, and about analyzing complex feelings by placing them in a story you can set yourself apart from. Pretend is about imagination and hope.

Adults need to pretend more, and spend less time asking to be reminded what it felt like to pretend when they were young.

Well said. I’m trying to form a reply regarding the adults growing up. I feel like I may not have explained it as best I could.

tragabigzanda wrote:I wouldn't equate the repeated digestion of derivative pop culture with "pretending," not even remotely the same thing. Pretending happens when you're in the band, in the community theater, writing the story, playing dress up with your kids, engrossed in a great video game. Pretending requires engagement, and most TV and movies are, by design, wholly passive forms of media.

you expressed it better than I could. Thanks.

epilogue wrote:Back to sucky tv Star Wars....

I think the main reason I'm able to keep enjoying (and maybe even keep apologizing?) for this stuff is that I'm really attracted to lore and mythology. Maybe the dialogue is clunky and maybe the acting is stiff and maybe the FVX look like a cartoon, and maybe I can't tell where they spent $180 million.... but OH SHIT THERE'S A COVEN OF WITCHES THAT USE THE FORCE BUT CALL IT THE THREAD AND WERE HUNTED INTO EXILE AND HOLY SHIT THEY MANAGED TO CREATE LIFE OUTSIDE OF CONCEPTION WHICH IS SOMETHING THE SITH HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DO FOR CENTURIES! OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH....

How is this gonna play out! What does this mean for what we thought we knew about the Star Wars mythology?! Does this tie into Anakin at all? And what the actual fuck actually happened during that fire?!

I'm a plot sucker, or rather a sucker for plot. I love world building, even if it comes with subpar character building. Ideally, I'd love to have both --- The Last Jedi, I'm looking right at you! But I have a higher tolerance for the mediocre stuff when the lore/mythology/world building ignites my synapses.

Cool, that’s a distinct reason why you are liking newer Star Wars.