Red Mosquito

biden looks worse every time i see him on tv. like he's just realizing he took a good long drink from the wrong grail.

Bernie could have demanded all sorts of things for his endorsement. Instead he sold out his followers for nothing.

Even Noam Chomsky thinks you should vote for Biden

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/4/10/ ... s_response

Yeah, I truly believe Bernie did the right thing. You can hold out longer to gain concessions on a meaningless platform, but I think it's better to get a head start on beating Trump (and senate GOP) so that it's not another 2-4 years of Republicans confirming the judges needed to derail your progressive ideas.

cutuphalfdead wrote:Even Noam Chomsky thinks you should vote for Biden

https://www.democracynow.org/2020/4/10/ ... s_response

i love the man

but god i could really just use the bullet points version at this point

Rob wrote:Yeah, I truly believe Bernie did the right thing. You can hold out longer to gain concessions on a meaningless platform, but I think it's better to get a head start on beating Trump (and senate GOP) so that it's not another 2-4 years of Republicans confirming the judges needed to derail your progressive ideas.

I also think it's not exactly clear Bernie "didn't get anything"--he or one of his surrogates may have been offered an influential cabinet post. He's already going to get platform say by reaching the 1200 delegate mark. And I think both that, A, he couldn't reasonably have held out for something like M4A and, B, Biden is going to need to make serious concessions to the left if he wants to count on them to show up in November. So I'm fine with this, especially given that it silences that 2016 critique that Bernie somehow personally tried to stop Hillary.

Also to be clear Biden is going to fucking lose either way.

Mickey wrote:

Rob wrote:Yeah, I truly believe Bernie did the right thing. You can hold out longer to gain concessions on a meaningless platform, but I think it's better to get a head start on beating Trump (and senate GOP) so that it's not another 2-4 years of Republicans confirming the judges needed to derail your progressive ideas.

I also think it's not exactly clear Bernie "didn't get anything"--he or one of his surrogates may have been offered an influential cabinet post. He's already going to get platform say by reaching the 1200 delegate mark. And I think both that, A, he couldn't reasonably have held out for something like M4A and, B, Biden is going to need to make serious concessions to the left if he wants to count on them to show up in November. So I'm fine with this, especially given that it silences that 2016 critique that Bernie somehow personally tried to stop Hillary.

I think Bernie over the last 4-5 years has been more successful than we could have hoped for. There's no shortage of people out there who will blame him for Hillary's loss or claim he's a drag on the party, but it's the party itself that's been a drag. A real seat at the table for the progressive left was the goal, and Bernie got us there. Not winning a nomination doesn't mean he didn't win anything. Bernie accomplished a ton. I am confident that Biden + Bernie + Obama (who I assume plays a big role), if they work together, can lead us to better outcomes.

Can you believe these delusional moderates, LV?

Rob wrote:

Mickey wrote:

Rob wrote:Yeah, I truly believe Bernie did the right thing. You can hold out longer to gain concessions on a meaningless platform, but I think it's better to get a head start on beating Trump (and senate GOP) so that it's not another 2-4 years of Republicans confirming the judges needed to derail your progressive ideas.

I also think it's not exactly clear Bernie "didn't get anything"--he or one of his surrogates may have been offered an influential cabinet post. He's already going to get platform say by reaching the 1200 delegate mark. And I think both that, A, he couldn't reasonably have held out for something like M4A and, B, Biden is going to need to make serious concessions to the left if he wants to count on them to show up in November. So I'm fine with this, especially given that it silences that 2016 critique that Bernie somehow personally tried to stop Hillary.

I think Bernie over the last 4-5 years has been more successful than we could have hoped for. There's no shortage of people out there who will blame him for Hillary's loss or claim he's a drag on the party, but it's the party itself that's been a drag. A real seat at the table for the progressive left was the goal, and Bernie got us there. Not winning a nomination doesn't mean he didn't win anything. Bernie accomplished a ton. I am confident that Biden + Bernie + Obama (who I assume plays a big role), if they work together, can lead us to better outcomes.

I have a wildly different take on the potential success of a Biden administration (who, again, I don't think can win), but I agree that Bernie's campaign has not been a failure when judged on a long-term scale. He was a vector for shifting the conversation wildly left and breaking the DNC's neoliberal consensus. That's important.

As an aside, Chomsky doesn't really represent "the left" anymore--certainly not the far left--and I'd argue that his influence has waned massively over the last decade. Doesn't mean he's wrong! But it's not a huge gotcha moment to say that even Chomsky is voting.

BurtReynolds wrote:Can you believe these delus ional moderates, LV?

I don't feel like Biden, Obama and Bernie working together to beat Trump is selling out. If there is a better strategy, link me to it.

Mickey wrote: I have a wildly different take on the potential success of a Biden administration (who, again, I don't think can win), but I agree that Bernie's campaign has not been a failure when judged on a long-term scale. He was a vector for shifting the conversation wildly left and breaking the DNC's neoliberal consensus. That's important.

I just feel like the goal is transitioning from a Trump to Biden admin. The battle doesn't end there, I just feel like if Trump wins again, the progressive agenda is really set back.

Chomsky can always be counted on to ultimately support the institutions he criticizes.

It's hard to measure Bernie's impact right now. I think the biggest impact he's had is to unintentionally disillusion millions of young people on the two-party system, and I think that's a good thing.

BurtReynolds wrote:Chomsky can always be counted on to ultimately support the institutions he criticizes.

He is a human being, saying that Trump is worse than Hillary or Biden. That doesn't invalidate his work.

Rob wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Can you believe these delus ional moderates, LV?

I don't feel like Biden, Obama and Bernie working together to beat Trump is selling out. If there is a better strategy, link me to it.

Mickey wrote: I have a wildly different take on the potential success of a Biden administration (who, again, I don't think can win), but I agree that Bernie's campaign has not been a failure when judged on a long-term scale. He was a vector for shifting the conversation wildly left and breaking the DNC's neoliberal consensus. That's important.

I just feel like the goal is transitioning from a Trump to Biden admin. The battle doesn't end there, I just feel like if Trump wins again, the progressive agenda is really set back.

I can see that argument--there are definitely changes even a weak Biden administration could make that would help reverse some of the more disastrous Trump effects. I'm thinking especially of a liberal NLRB and what that might mean for collective bargaining rights (given that workplace organizing is probably the best non-electoral strategy available to the left right now). And getting people to go out for Biden means going out for crucial down-ballot races--if the Dems take the Senate it doesn't really matter who's president.

Rob wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Chomsky can always be counted on to ultimately support the institutions he criticizes.

He is a human being, saying that Trump is worse than Hillary or Biden. That doesn't invalidate his work.

Yeah Burt that wasn't really my point--I think you can loathe the Democratic party and still vote for their candidate over Trump without much cognitive dissonance. It's Chomsky's own positions that have discredited him in the eyes of the left--no one's really going for libertarian socialism anymore (for good reason!). He's a good critic of empire but I don't think he serves for much beyond that.

Mickey wrote:

Rob wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Can you believe these delus ional moderates, LV?

I don't feel like Biden, Obama and Bernie working together to beat Trump is selling out. If there is a better strategy, link me to it.

Mickey wrote: I have a wildly different take on the potential success of a Biden administration (who, again, I don't think can win), but I agree that Bernie's campaign has not been a failure when judged on a long-term scale. He was a vector for shifting the conversation wildly left and breaking the DNC's neoliberal consensus. That's important.

I just feel like the goal is transitioning from a Trump to Biden admin. The battle doesn't end there, I just feel like if Trump wins again, the progressive agenda is really set back.

I can see that argument--there are definitely changes even a weak Biden administration could make that would help reverse some of the more disastrous Trump effects. I'm thinking especially of a liberal NLRB and what that might mean for collective bargaining rights (given that workplace organizing is probably the best non-electoral strategy available to the left right now). And getting people to go out for Biden means going out for crucial down-ballot races--if the Dems take the Senate it doesn't really matter who's president.

Nobody knows the future, but I do feel like this is the strategy. A "weak" Biden admin is better than any Trump admin.. and has many good outcomes down ballot.

Rob wrote:

Mickey wrote:

Rob wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Can you believe these delus ional moderates, LV?

I don't feel like Biden, Obama and Bernie working together to beat Trump is selling out. If there is a better strategy, link me to it.

Mickey wrote: I have a wildly different take on the potential success of a Biden administration (who, again, I don't think can win), but I agree that Bernie's campaign has not been a failure when judged on a long-term scale. He was a vector for shifting the conversation wildly left and breaking the DNC's neoliberal consensus. That's important.

I just feel like the goal is transitioning from a Trump to Biden admin. The battle doesn't end there, I just feel like if Trump wins again, the progressive agenda is really set back.

I can see that argument--there are definitely changes even a weak Biden administration could make that would help reverse some of the more disastrous Trump effects. I'm thinking especially of a liberal NLRB and what that might mean for collective bargaining rights (given that workplace organizing is probably the best non-electoral strategy available to the left right now). And getting people to go out for Biden means going out for crucial down-ballot races--if the Dems take the Senate it doesn't really matter who's president.

Nobody knows the future, but I do feel like this is the strategy. A "weak" Biden admin is better than any Trump admin.. and has many good outcomes down ballot.

I should be clear, I'm not advocating an alternate strategy, but my suspicion is that these minor executive-branch-driven gains will be wiped out by the conservative backlash in 2024 as the thin veneer of harm reduction offered by a Biden presidency is fully discredited.