Red Mosquito

evenslow wrote:Relevant to the current discussion, from a 2011 interview with Ed (in regard to writing for the then untitled Lightning Bolt):

Ed Vedder wrote:The way we write as a group, we all bring songs in and invariably in the past it would take a lot of time to get things right. Now I jump on things immediately. The band will have a piece of music with no lyrics, and now it has to be a knockout in the first round. The ones that go 15 rounds, they become harder to appreciate, because you only remember the battle after they’re done. If you can get in there right away, you capture something in those first 15 minutes. That’s the way it seems to be working best for us.

"...and, hey, let's face it, this way involves a lot less hard work."

Have you heard that collection of outtakes from the S/T album sessions, trag? There's some really interesting ideas going on there. You wonder what got junked during the writing sessions for the last few records.

tragabigzanda wrote:

evenslow wrote:Relevant to the current discussion, from a 2011 interview with Ed (in regard to writing for the then untitled Lightning Bolt):

Ed Vedder wrote:The way we write as a group, we all bring songs in and invariably in the past it would take a lot of time to get things right. Now I jump on things immediately. The band will have a piece of music with no lyrics, and now it has to be a knockout in the first round. The ones that go 15 rounds, they become harder to appreciate, because you only remember the battle after they’re done. If you can get in there right away, you capture something in those first 15 minutes. That’s the way it seems to be working best for us.

So upsetting. Some of the best music comes from long-term rumination and re-jiggering of ideas with your bandmates. By immediately cutting ideas because they don't jump out right away, there is probably some really interesting stuff falling to the cutting room floor.

The other part of the equation is the direction/input from BOB in shaping the record. They've all mentioned more than once how fast BOB likes to work. So I'm (educated) guessing that with the 1-2 punch of Ed and BOB, they're going for immediate gratification which can result in half-baked ideas.

One of the differences between now and back in the day is that they used to fight BOB a lot more. The tension between styles probably helped take the music to another level. Now BOB is like a conduit to getting the record done quicker. They're much more open to hearing what he has to say, and often what he has to say is "quit dithering guys."

Yeah, their fascination with efficiency is pretty perplexing. There's nothing inherently wrong with writing a song in 15 minutes, but there's nothing inherently right with it, either, and it's been giving them diminishing returns.

Birds in Hell wrote:Have you heard that collection of outtakes from the S/T album sessions, trag? There's some really interesting ideas going on there. You wonder what got junked during the writing sessions for the last few records.

That's the thing, I'm guessing less and less has gotten "junked" over the last two records because they're not hemming and hawing about how to do a song. They're getting inspiration and moving quickly on it. If something gets finished it's probably on the record. If something doesn't work in the "first 15 minutes" they give up on it.

But what the hell do I know. I usually hate it when people try to convey the intentions of an artist but I'm bored it's a Tuesday night deal with it Pearl Jam.

Yeah, they quickly get inspired in January, and quickly record it in May during one of two 2-week sessions.

McParadigm wrote:Yeah, they quickly get inspired in January, and quickly record it in May during one of two 2-week sessions.

The second of which is two years later.

Birds in Hell wrote:Have you heard that collection of outtakes from the S/T album sessions, trag? There's some really interesting ideas going on there. You wonder what got junked during the writing sessions for the last few records.

It's funny, as much as I'd get on Eddie's case for getting to this point as a writer, I find myself equally impatient with the idea of sitting through this stuff as a listener. Two discs of S/T-era cutting room floor "rough sketches?" Pass. No wonder Eddie wants to have done with this shit and get back to surfing!

Kevin Davis wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:Have you heard that collection of outtakes from the S/T album sessions, trag? There's some really interesting ideas going on there. You wonder what got junked during the writing sessions for the last few records.

It's funny, as much as I'd get on Eddie's case for getting to this point as a writer, I find myself equally impatient with the idea of sitting through this stuff as a listener. Two discs of S/T-era cutting room floor "rough sketches?" Pass. No wonder Eddie wants to have done with this shit and get back to surfing!

And it was actually S/T that they slaved over for months. Even did the ol' "jamming in the studio" routine.

Must've been a helluva slog b/c their reaction to that was to hire BOB and "work fast."

I bet he went the long slog on Lightning Bolt, Swallowed Whole, Unthought Known, Speed Of Sound to name a few on the last album. Of course, he's more inspired by his own tracks.

tragabigzanda wrote:

Mine wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

EJ wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

stip wrote:However they achieve it, or whatever you want to call it, there's a stuttering uncertain quality to the way it is executed, like it's tripping over its own feet trying to get going, that I think fits the song really well and I find compelling, rather than cumbersome. That's probably the last word I'd use, actually (well, not the last) since it's always felt like a song that is surprisingly light and limber on its feet, despite the heavier feel.

I think the most obvious weirdness is that both chords of the main riff blast through your speakers on an upbeat rather than a downbeat.

Yeah, I do like that. It gives it a small dose of Rolling Stones, and that serves it well. Would that this band had more of that.

Matt, Stone, and Jeff need to write the next album together in a vacuum. Then let Ed and Mike fit their parts in after the rhythm tracks have been sorted out.

Didn't they initially do that for Backspacer up at Jeff's place in MT?

There isn't a lot of Keith Richards in them anyways, and the whole "everyone demos complete songs" thing just strips it further into singer-songwriter directness, but my guess is the final step to it becoming a dull streamlined rock record is when Ed picks his choices from the always-described "30 or 40 ideas" they start with. How many variations have we heard of "if Ed doesn't feel it, it goes."

What is the alternative (at this point)? Force Ed to write lyrics and melody to songs he doesn't feel, achieving results that people will detest anyway.
Besides what we heard of their ideas isn't exactly exiting. It's just different kinds of mediocre that variously appeal to people based on their taste rather than those ideas being particularly promising on their own.

The Backspacer argument is sound, but follow my train of thought: Jeff has been writing consistently interesting music for his solo/side-project stuff throughout the PRAMG; Matt has consistently written some of the best PRAMG material; and Stone has historically contributed a lot of great riffs (Amongst the Waves notwithstanding). But yea, "Ed needs to feel it" is the ultimate truth here, and I think he's not getting out of the Cat Stevens/Bruce Springsteen zone any time soon.

Jeff wrote and co-wrote a big chunk of the last record and his non-PJ work, while it has it's fans, can hardly be called universally acclaimed or even successful on any level. I think he's appreciated more because of where he wanders stylistically than what he actually manages to achieve within those styles as a songwriter.

Matt just isn't someone who seems particularly interested in writing as he wrote very little in either Soundgarden or Pearl Jam. Stone's riffs aren't really as interesting as Pearl Jam fans tend to assume they are. I mean this in the sense that those riffs aren't strong enough to carry a song so they need a strong melody and vocal line to front them.
Also i believe that Stone at some point grew into the same mindset Ed was during Vitalogy and No Code. He doesn't particularly enjoy composing his songs with the band's input. He seems to prefer to help the others co-write their songs and writing his parts in other people's songs. He did say Pearl Jam is the most democratically collaborative band he's been, so there's that.

I remember they said that whenever any one of them feels strongly about a particular song it is included in the album, so there really isn't anybody in the band who has the final say over the rest of them.

It's also relevant to the discussion to mention that if the March madness and other competitions and rankings here serve as a (better than the 5-7 people that keep posting around here) barometer, Ed's song are the most consistently liked throughout their career by the people who vote/rank the songs, so the argument that he is the weak link doesn't really hold water (except to the 5-7 people who keep posting here).

The guys have been doing this for decades and i think the most eloquent fact that defines their individual songwriting qualities is how little success their many many side projects had. They achieved less success outside of the band people in bands big as Pearl Jam tend to achieve in their side projects.

I think the band's current dynamic is misunderstood. Binaural should in theory be close to an ideal scenario because they all had a strong voice within their own compositions during those sessions, yet it seems to be far from it. I think this is because the issue wasn't so much not being allowed to have specific songs developed the way they wanted to, and have them on the record. I think the issue was not having input on Ed's songs which, him being the most prolific songwriter, ended up being half the record and defining the record in large part.
This is what seemed to have changed the most, they get to shape Ed's songs the way they please making them more influential in defining the overall feel of the record.
At least this is the only thing that makes sense to me considering how they describe their process in the present and past.

Mine wrote: Matt just isn't someone who seems particularly interested in writing

wait what?

2x4 into Corduroy would be a great way to open a concert.

Mine wrote:Ed's song are the most consistently liked throughout their career by the people who vote/rank the songs, so the argument that he is the weak link doesn't really hold water (except to the 5-7 people who keep posting here).

You're right, Ed is not the "weak link." I just wish he would spend more time on difficult ideas that could be spun into gold. If not that, then hire a headstrong producer with a focused idea of where he wants to take the group thematically, and give in to that a little bit.

The off-the-cuff, immediate style of recording would be completely fine... if they released albums much more frequently (see: Young, Neil). But it's hard to go that route every 4 years and really have it work for you.

LetMeSleep wrote:I bet he went the long slog on Lightning Bolt, Swallowed Whole, Unthought Known, Speed Of Sound to name a few on the last album. Of course, he's more inspired by his own tracks.

The last three you mentioned are actually perfect examples of that quick "unthought" style of songwriting.

evenslow wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:I bet he went the long slog on Lightning Bolt, Swallowed Whole, Unthought Known, Speed Of Sound to name a few on the last album. Of course, he's more inspired by his own tracks.

The last three you mentioned are actually perfect examples of that quick "unthought" style of songwriting.

You think lyrically too? I'm not sure. I think he labours over a lot of his lyrics. Getaway I can see as that "unthought" style.