Red Mosquito

stip wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I don't believe backspacer and most of what we've heard on LB is playing to thier strengths. Or thier roots. Though what you think thier strengths are will be subjective I guess.

They haven't done anything too out there with thier promotion this time. Little YouTube snippets and listening parties seem pearl jam to me. Unlike target-gate.

I don't think they're clawing for money, I think they've just come to enjoy the big party sing along aspect of the live shows more than anything else. They want the excited people jumping around singing along to betterman and black and I'm sure they're hoping, sirens.

that's almost certainly true. They want their music to be a celebration, and so their songs have a more celebratory feel--a solidarity grounded in the world not being an awful place, and being united in joy, rather than a solidarity grounded in the world being a horrible and confusing place, but at least we're not alone in it together.

I think they made their best work with the later perspective. I'm so thankful that music exists. But I'm not sure it's really what I want from them at this point. I think it might feel pretty inauthentic and stale.

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:Pearl Jam never wanted to have a small audience. They have always been a big arena rock band.

I just don't agree with that, and neither do a lot of people. That's the crux of the matter. They had decades to decide that musical integrity was more important than a giant fanbase. Binaural and Riot Act were the genius culmination of that aesthetic. No Code, and the need to run from a giant fanbase and do something else, might have been the trigger, but they sure as hell stayed on that path for a long time and grew contented with it. By the time S/T came around and they suddenly decided they wanted to be like U2 again, that was very much a surprising decision out of leftfield, and jarring for a lot of fans. They were very suddenly following the opposite trajectory that they'd started following at No Code, and it had been a long time. You can't be surprised that a lot of people weren't prepared to readjust.

I rail about this constantly but I really just don't see where current choices are undermining the musical integrity of the band. Certainly they may care less about producing new music, but that's not the same thing as not caring about the music you produce.

And Binaural and Riot Act remain, easily, the pearl jam sound I am most thankful they have moved away from. For me it is hardly the genius culmination of anything--it represented a sour artistic dead end that systematically alienated their artistic strengths for...I'm not even sure why. I will obviously concede that those records are very important and very impressive to a lot of people, and quite possibly for good reasons, but that does not mean that the current approach represents an artistic dead end. They are writing songs playing to a different set of strengths--ones that, I think, are a much better fit for the band.

If people move away from the band because they aren't writing the kind of music they want to hear that's a no brainer. You can't argue with that. But I would strongly argue with what I see as the implications in your post that the approach they've abandoned was inherently superior/more artistic/etc. Maybe that wasn't your point.

All fair points stip and you argue your feelings well. It's nice to have that other side represented. Ultimately, though, it's that not caring as much about making records as they used to that bothers me. It's down to the new "efficiency" they want to achieve now that makes them cut corners. And it's obvious. So my gripes aren't as much about style as about substance. How hard are they trying? Not very hard, by the looks of it. And part of me says they have every right to relax, record something for a few weeks every four years, whatever. But does that chime with their stated intentions? They're not going to become commercially relevant if that's all the effort they're going to.

that 4 year thing is a little misleading since they sort of announced a break for the PJ 20 year (which did produce a fair amount of stuff). Since then it's been 2 years, right? 3? And they spent 7 weeks working on the actual record over two writing sessions with a shit ton of scheduling commitments in between. How does that 7 week figure, which seems more relevant to me than the 4 years, stack up to past records (genuine question)?


Regarding the bold we are left with two possible options here.

1. Pearl Jam is just the worst band ever at setting out to do what they're trying to do

or

2. It may not be the controlling motive here.


I am more inclined to think that one of the most successful and influential bands of the last 20 years, and a likely first ballot R+R HoF induction, would be so terrible at managing this.

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

Mine wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:

harmless wrote:All of it. I'm trying to like the music while still thinking BO'B's a dick. I think that he just knows what the general public feeling about PJ is, however superficial and casual it sounds, i.e. "Eddie Vedder's band." Nobody in the general public gives much of a shit about the other musicians, so neither does BO'B.

I'm right where you are. I think BoB is a massive tool. But, I do see him for what he is, a really good industry rock producer who knows how to get a powerful sound. Plus, he's the only one who can truly handle EdVed as a vocalist and get the best out of him. I think your Steve Albini and Jack Endinos of the world are great for "cred" but it doesn't amount much to bringing in an audience. Next album I wish he's just come on in the end and do the vocals, and use another producer to help sort through the ideas and general direction.

His interview reallt grate on me, you get the sense he doesn't really have appreciation for the creative process. What it takes to imagine a song out of thin air and how to keep artistic integrity. He almost seems to look down on that, so the artistry of an album seems to depend on how much the band stands up to him. The right balance could yield amazing results, though.

Yep. I guess the thing is, why do they need to "bring in an audience" at this point? You might disagree, but a lot of people see what they're doing currently as ungratefully shitting on the audience they've already developed. They've got any right in the world to do that, but I think some people are feeling abandoned, and quite rightly. Their recent aesthetic choices don't reflect the band they became; they reflect the band that they moved away from. It is what it is. But the recent sales pitches and commercial efforts... it just all seems grating because nobody really believes Pearl Jam are in any way struggling for money. They don't need the money, so this change of aesthetic must amount to a change in values... I'm hoping not but eh, it's getting increasingly hard to believe and some people stopped believing a long time ago.

or having to do all the promotional shit themselves that someone else used to do for them.

They never did this much, though, or the same things. There's an obvious reach for a different, or wider, demographic.

I think it may have something to do with having kids. I guess they crave more money for their children rather then for themselves at this point.

someone posted once that Eddie vedder was worth 90 million dollars. His kids are fine. And if they wanted money they'd tour more, release more music, etc. That's how they make money.

Yup. And the thing is (my opinion on the music is irrelevant to this point), people wouldn't exactly feel like continuing to support and enjoy a band that was merely building a trustfund for their children.

theplatypus wrote:Also, Pearl Jam's "roots" sound nothing like Backspacer, so that argument is kind of silly.

Release_Me wrote:

theplatypus wrote:Also, Pearl Jam's "roots" sound nothing like Backspacer, so that argument is kind of silly.

Sounding like is different from focusing on the elements which made them the band they were.

Heathen wrote:

stip wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I don't believe backspacer and most of what we've heard on LB is playing to thier strengths. Or thier roots. Though what you think thier strengths are will be subjective I guess.

They haven't done anything too out there with thier promotion this time. Little YouTube snippets and listening parties seem pearl jam to me. Unlike target-gate.

I don't think they're clawing for money, I think they've just come to enjoy the big party sing along aspect of the live shows more than anything else. They want the excited people jumping around singing along to betterman and black and I'm sure they're hoping, sirens.

that's almost certainly true. They want their music to be a celebration, and so their songs have a more celebratory feel--a solidarity grounded in the world not being an awful place, and being united in joy, rather than a solidarity grounded in the world being a horrible and confusing place, but at least we're not alone in it together.

I think they made their best work with the later perspective. I'm so thankful that music exists. But I'm not sure it's really what I want from them at this point. I think it might feel pretty inauthentic and stale.

The world is still a horrible place though.

theplatypus wrote:YOUR BRAIN MAY BE A PEARL-JAM-EXCUSE-MAKER BUT IT'S STILL FOUR FUCKING YEARS YOU CAN'T SAY IT'S NOT FOUR YEARS STIP *aneurysm*

theplatypus wrote:YOUR BRAIN MAY BE A PEARL-JAM-EXCUSE-MAKER BUT IT'S STILL FOUR FUCKING YEARS YOU CAN'T SAY IT'S NOT FOUR YEARS STIP *aneurysm*

Heathen wrote:

stip wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I don't believe backspacer and most of what we've heard on LB is playing to thier strengths. Or thier roots. Though what you think thier strengths are will be subjective I guess.

They haven't done anything too out there with thier promotion this time. Little YouTube snippets and listening parties seem pearl jam to me. Unlike target-gate.

I don't think they're clawing for money, I think they've just come to enjoy the big party sing along aspect of the live shows more than anything else. They want the excited people jumping around singing along to betterman and black and I'm sure they're hoping, sirens.

that's almost certainly true. They want their music to be a celebration, and so their songs have a more celebratory feel--a solidarity grounded in the world not being an awful place, and being united in joy, rather than a solidarity grounded in the world being a horrible and confusing place, but at least we're not alone in it together.

I think they made their best work with the later perspective. I'm so thankful that music exists. But I'm not sure it's really what I want from them at this point. I think it might feel pretty inauthentic and stale.

The world is still a horrible place though.

theplatypus wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't see anything in their recent music which shows that they've gone out of their way to 'gain' fans.

They have openly stated as much.

harmless wrote:

Heathen wrote:

stip wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I don't believe backspacer and most of what we've heard on LB is playing to thier strengths. Or thier roots. Though what you think thier strengths are will be subjective I guess.

They haven't done anything too out there with thier promotion this time. Little YouTube snippets and listening parties seem pearl jam to me. Unlike target-gate.

I don't think they're clawing for money, I think they've just come to enjoy the big party sing along aspect of the live shows more than anything else. They want the excited people jumping around singing along to betterman and black and I'm sure they're hoping, sirens.

that's almost certainly true. They want their music to be a celebration, and so their songs have a more celebratory feel--a solidarity grounded in the world not being an awful place, and being united in joy, rather than a solidarity grounded in the world being a horrible and confusing place, but at least we're not alone in it together.

I think they made their best work with the later perspective. I'm so thankful that music exists. But I'm not sure it's really what I want from them at this point. I think it might feel pretty inauthentic and stale.

The world is still a horrible place though.

It really, really is.

Tuolumne wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:

harmless wrote:All of it. I'm trying to like the music while still thinking BO'B's a dick. I think that he just knows what the general public feeling about PJ is, however superficial and casual it sounds, i.e. "Eddie Vedder's band." Nobody in the general public gives much of a shit about the other musicians, so neither does BO'B.

I'm right where you are. I think BoB is a massive tool. But, I do see him for what he is, a really good industry rock producer who knows how to get a powerful sound. Plus, he's the only one who can truly handle EdVed as a vocalist and get the best out of him. I think your Steve Albini and Jack Endinos of the world are great for "cred" but it doesn't amount much to bringing in an audience. Next album I wish he's just come on in the end and do the vocals, and use another producer to help sort through the ideas and general direction.

His interview reallt grate on me, you get the sense he doesn't really have appreciation for the creative process. What it takes to imagine a song out of thin air and how to keep artistic integrity. He almost seems to look down on that, so the artistry of an album seems to depend on how much the band stands up to him. The right balance could yield amazing results, though.

Yep. I guess the thing is, why do they need to "bring in an audience" at this point? You might disagree, but a lot of people see what they're doing currently as ungratefully shitting on the audience they've already developed. They've got any right in the world to do that, but I think some people are feeling abandoned, and quite rightly. Their recent aesthetic choices don't reflect the band they became; they reflect the band that they moved away from. It is what it is. But the recent sales pitches and commercial efforts... it just all seems grating because nobody really believes Pearl Jam are in any way struggling for money. They don't need the money, so this change of aesthetic must amount to a change in values... I'm hoping not but eh, it's getting increasingly hard to believe and some people stopped believing a long time ago.

or having to do all the promotional shit themselves that someone else used to do for them.

They never did this much, though, or the same things. There's an obvious reach for a different, or wider, demographic.

Such as? And bear in mind too that some of this may also be a way to respond to the decentralized nature of music consumption. Something has to replace the big display in the record store that your label shipped there. that's not gonna fly anymore.

Can't stress Stip's point enough here. It is a TOTALLY different and fragmented world now. Used to be, you could do one thing for MTV and reach everyone. It was the monoculture, people were united behind listening to a small number of TV and radion outlets and the audience was captive. Now, the audience is smashed into a trillion pieces. Promotion has to be similarly broken up and distributed. They weren't ever going to make an album without letting people know. Only difference is that during Vitalogy/No code, the massive audience was there waiting and watching through those few media outlets. And ..... do I really have to explain all of this? I thought everyone kind of got that we're living in very different times now.

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:Pearl Jam never wanted to have a small audience. They have always been a big arena rock band.

I just don't agree with that, and neither do a lot of people. That's the crux of the matter. They had decades to decide that musical integrity was more important than a giant fanbase. Binaural and Riot Act were the genius culmination of that aesthetic. No Code, and the need to run from a giant fanbase and do something else, might have been the trigger, but they sure as hell stayed on that path for a long time and grew contented with it. By the time S/T came around and they suddenly decided they wanted to be like U2 again, that was very much a surprising decision out of leftfield, and jarring for a lot of fans. They were very suddenly following the opposite trajectory that they'd started following at No Code, and it had been a long time. You can't be surprised that a lot of people weren't prepared to readjust.

I rail about this constantly but I really just don't see where current choices are undermining the musical integrity of the band. Certainly they may care less about producing new music, but that's not the same thing as not caring about the music you produce.

And Binaural and Riot Act remain, easily, the pearl jam sound I am most thankful they have moved away from. For me it is hardly the genius culmination of anything--it represented a sour artistic dead end that systematically alienated their artistic strengths for...I'm not even sure why. I will obviously concede that those records are very important and very impressive to a lot of people, and quite possibly for good reasons, but that does not mean that the current approach represents an artistic dead end. They are writing songs playing to a different set of strengths--ones that, I think, are a much better fit for the band.

If people move away from the band because they aren't writing the kind of music they want to hear that's a no brainer. You can't argue with that. But I would strongly argue with what I see as the implications in your post that the approach they've abandoned was inherently superior/more artistic/etc. Maybe that wasn't your point.

All fair points stip and you argue your feelings well. It's nice to have that other side represented. Ultimately, though, it's that not caring as much about making records as they used to that bothers me. It's down to the new "efficiency" they want to achieve now that makes them cut corners. And it's obvious. So my gripes aren't as much about style as about substance. How hard are they trying? Not very hard, by the looks of it. And part of me says they have every right to relax, record something for a few weeks every four years, whatever. But does that chime with their stated intentions? They're not going to become commercially relevant if that's all the effort they're going to.

that 4 year thing is a little misleading since they sort of announced a break for the PJ 20 year (which did produce a fair amount of stuff). Since then it's been 2 years, right? 3? And they spent 7 weeks working on the actual record over two writing sessions with a shit ton of scheduling commitments in between. How does that 7 week figure, which seems more relevant to me than the 4 years, stack up to past records (genuine question)?


Regarding the bold we are left with two possible options here.

1. Pearl Jam is just the worst band ever at setting out to do what they're trying to do

or

2. It may not be the controlling motive here.


I am more inclined to think that one of the most successful and influential bands of the last 20 years, and a likely first ballot R+R HoF induction, would be so terrible at managing this.

OK, yeah. But you know, I'm just a fan who doesn't care about the huge PJ20 campaign. Me, I still waited 4 years for an album while a bunch of advertising happened on the back of a pop album. It was much larger than it ever had to be. It was executed well, but the film largely ignored the middle period as well.

Anyway, it would be interesting to find out just how long they spent writing and recording each album, if we have that information.

harmless wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

theplatypus wrote:Also, Pearl Jam's "roots" sound nothing like Backspacer, so that argument is kind of silly.

Sounding like is different from focusing on the elements which made them the band they were.

Whatever way you want to swing it, there is no way Backspacer does this.

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

Heathen wrote:

stip wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I don't believe backspacer and most of what we've heard on LB is playing to thier strengths. Or thier roots. Though what you think thier strengths are will be subjective I guess.

They haven't done anything too out there with thier promotion this time. Little YouTube snippets and listening parties seem pearl jam to me. Unlike target-gate.

I don't think they're clawing for money, I think they've just come to enjoy the big party sing along aspect of the live shows more than anything else. They want the excited people jumping around singing along to betterman and black and I'm sure they're hoping, sirens.

that's almost certainly true. They want their music to be a celebration, and so their songs have a more celebratory feel--a solidarity grounded in the world not being an awful place, and being united in joy, rather than a solidarity grounded in the world being a horrible and confusing place, but at least we're not alone in it together.

I think they made their best work with the later perspective. I'm so thankful that music exists. But I'm not sure it's really what I want from them at this point. I think it might feel pretty inauthentic and stale.

The world is still a horrible place though.

It really, really is.

Oh sure, and I agree, but you can also think the world is a horrible place and not feel alienated from it. Somehow I manage to basically enjoy, even savor, my day to day existence.

Strat wrote:

stip wrote:

harmless wrote:

Heathen wrote:

stip wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I don't believe backspacer and most of what we've heard on LB is playing to thier strengths. Or thier roots. Though what you think thier strengths are will be subjective I guess.

They haven't done anything too out there with thier promotion this time. Little YouTube snippets and listening parties seem pearl jam to me. Unlike target-gate.

I don't think they're clawing for money, I think they've just come to enjoy the big party sing along aspect of the live shows more than anything else. They want the excited people jumping around singing along to betterman and black and I'm sure they're hoping, sirens.

that's almost certainly true. They want their music to be a celebration, and so their songs have a more celebratory feel--a solidarity grounded in the world not being an awful place, and being united in joy, rather than a solidarity grounded in the world being a horrible and confusing place, but at least we're not alone in it together.

I think they made their best work with the later perspective. I'm so thankful that music exists. But I'm not sure it's really what I want from them at this point. I think it might feel pretty inauthentic and stale.

The world is still a horrible place though.

It really, really is.

Oh sure, and I agree, but you can also think the world is a horrible place and not feel alienated from it. Somehow I manage to basically enjoy, even savor, my day to day existence.

The nerve of you!