Red Mosquito

stupidmop wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:
I'm not equating quality to sales. I sincerely believe Pearl Jam "fans" prefer this sort of music. Just because a few computer-savy people set up a website where some PJ fans gather and over the years of talking to one another some there form like-minded opinions on the band's worst albums being the best, doesn't make all those other Pearl Jam fans less relevant. Album sales for one band, typically CAN indicate an album's quality when comparing it the SAME band's other albums.

Literally no one here thinks this place is the be all and end all of opinions on Pearl Jam. Right now i am in the minority of people on this board who dislike sirens and isn't too excited about the other tracks i've heard either. I am not however running around pissing people off with 'just because you like these songs don't forget that some of us dislike them, geez theres so many positive opinions here i feel unwelcome, why dont you people understand that people have different views on pearl jam????' Which is what you sound like.

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I do understand that people have an are entitled to different views/rankings. I simply think the "AMOUNT" of preference for Riot Act (HERE) over other albums is due (in many cases) to a herd mentality and nothing more. And I am quite sure, in a larger sense when discussing all the band's fans, that preference is in the minority.

Doesn't mean some seriously don't like that album best. I'm sure some do. But, I'm saying there are some that seem to like it just because that's the one most fans don't. Which is annoying to me. I can't stand hipsters.

IlluminEddie wrote:For example, sales were declining for the band and hit low points during Binaural and Riot Act. I'm fairly sure they picked up with S/T and Backspacer.

In general, sales are an indicator. Sales trends are also an indicator. And in this case, I think they are pretty decent one because we're not just picking out outliers, we're dealing with sales and trends FOR ONE BAND ALONE. The trend is being broken with PJ's newer stuff. The trend was hitting new lows with Riot Act and Binaural.

I prefer Binaural and riot act to the subsequent albums i didnt say you had to. In no way do i think they are more commercial albums. They also ramped up the marketing with S/T and beyond.

I refuse to be sucked into an illumineddie blackhole , if any one sees me reply again slap me.[/quote][/quote]

Stop victimizing yourself. You said "you're sure it (a best of CD entitled mind your manners - indicating more recent material) would fly off the shelves." I, for one, like their new direction. You don't. I asked a question - about which would do better more recent stuff vs. Binaural/Riot Act? You got upset.

One thing i like more in the video version is how the backing vocals sound compared to the studio version. I think B'OB mixed polyphonic vocal parts in an odd way in some parts. It's like if he autotuned numerous takes to fit perfectly making it sound like a bad chorus effect. The live version sounds more natural in warmer in contrast with the "digital" sound of the album version.

IlluminEddie wrote:Which is annoying to me. I can't stand hipsters.

You're talking to Pearl Jam fans. Everybody here is old and fat.

McParadigm wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:Which is annoying to me. I can't stand hipsters.

You are going to love ThePlatypus! i see you are getting alone just fine...

BeingeNlightened wrote: As a long time drummer and studio rat I am not hearing this as "not in time"...

Nope, it's definitely not in time.

P.S.: I'm a drummer, too.

Something just dawned on me... Sirens is almost 6 mins long, yet it feels kinda short.
That's about the best compliment you can give a song. It might have to do with the arrangement, but I think that's part of the reason why I am enjoying this song.

IlluminEddie wrote:
Stop victimizing yourself. You said "you're sure it (a best of CD entitled mind your manners - indicating more recent material) would fly off the shelves." I, for one, like their new direction. You don't. I asked a question - about which would do better more recent stuff vs. Binaural/Riot Act? You got upset.

You're right, My Bad. I'm almost always joking btw. I put exactly zero thought into the flying off the shelves thing other than it amused me. I don't actually own a copy of riot act.

bluestate wrote:Something just dawned on me... Sirens is almost 6 mins long, yet it feels kinda short.
That's about the best compliment you can give a song. It might have to do with the arrangement, but I think that's part of the reason why I am enjoying this song.

i could see that outro being extended live

bluestate wrote:Something just dawned on me... Sirens is almost 6 mins long, yet it feels kinda short.
That's about the best compliment you can give a song. It might have to do with the arrangement, but I think that's part of the reason why I am enjoying this song.

Yup. 1s listen felt like 10 minutes but is at about 3 now.

McParadigm wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:You're leaving out that Backspacer ALREADY sold more than Riot Act.

Even if the point on Binaural is true in actual levels (which I'd like to see), it's probably not true in terms of speed and quantity, which is the real point. The earlier albums have a head's start and were in a psychical market, so it's slightly incomparable. Backspacer is already higher than Riot Act in sales, and (even if it hasn't yet) I think it will pass Binaural with time given it's start. S/T wasn't really mentioned by me at all I don't believe.

And my original point was a greatest hits of LB and Backspacer would outsell a greatest hits of Riot Act and Binaural. I think this will be true based on Backspacer's positive market reception (which you hinted at) vs Riot Act's (which was ignored) and Binaural's (which you said performed worse than Backspacer).

You're missing my point, charmer. I'm agreeing that Backspacer is by far the most impactful record they made last decade, in terms of non-fans, but illustrating why sales figures are a bad way to evaluate that.

However, since you asked, as of late 2012....

2000 Binaural - 752,000
2002 Riot Act - 508,000
2003 Lost Dogs - 385,000
2004 Rearviewmirror - 1,209,000
2006 Pearl Jam - 706,000
2009 Backspacer - 618,000

Now keep this in mind while looking at that:

I don't see how you said that sales figures are bad indicator when talking about ONE band though.

As for these numbers, I see what you mean with the decline in overall music sales. But, to add to that point, if you take each record and divide it by the number of years it's been out, to get an annual sales total, this is what you get:

Binaural: 57.8K
Riot Act: 46.1K
S/T: 100.8K
Backspacer: 154.5K
Average: 90K

Taking an average growth is 90K, Backspacer it will pass Binaural's current sales in about 2 years. I'd say it'll past it totally within 5.

It's a guesstimate, but it's a reasonable one to assume Backspacer will surpass Binaural, probably pretty quickly. When all is said and done, the low points probably will be Binaural and Riot Act (unless new records do poorly) and this is in the mist of the declining market (like your chart shows) - which makes the sales "GROWTH" of Backspacer and S/T even more impressive.

theplatypus wrote:

stupidmop wrote:I don't know why you're equating quality to sales.

Because he's IlluminEddie and he's a dumb dumb dumb motherfucker

Every one of us was thinking this. It's hilarious someone actually said it.

bluestate wrote:Something just dawned on me... Sirens is almost 6 mins long, yet it feels kinda short.
That's about the best compliment you can give a song. It might have to do with the arrangement, but I think that's part of the reason why I am enjoying this song.

The whole argument about sales takes nothing into account about inaccessibility of lead singles, amount of promotion done in interviews, TV appearances, inserts in TV shows, etc. In the early 2000s, PJ was making some of the more non-commercial music they'd ever make while doing much less promotion for it than they had earlier in the 90s and would do later this decade. Why is it so surprising that those records would sell less?

So I think Illumineddie's point isn't so much wrong as irrelevant; anyone trying to read in a feeling about how fans as a whole felt about records based on album sales is vastly overrating the interest casual fans have in the peaks and valleys of PJ's recording career.

digster wrote:The whole argument about sales takes nothing into account about inaccessibility of lead singles, amount of promotion done in interviews, TV appearances, inserts in TV shows, etc. In the early 2000s, PJ was making some of the more non-commercial music they'd ever make while doing much less promotion for it than they had earlier in the 90s and would do later this decade. Why is it so surprising that those records would sell less?

So I think Illumineddie's point isn't so much wrong as irrelevant; anyone trying to read in a feeling about how fans as a whole felt about records based on album sales is vastly overrating the interest casual fans have in the peaks and valleys of PJ's recording career.

But, if you think that, what you're doing is unfair too. You're trying to provide scapegoats -like: well, they put out shit singles and this and that. For the new albums they could say, well we're fucking OLD now. We hit the height of our fame 20 years ago. We're dealing with a rise in piracy and so on. I think the amount of excuses they could make now is even higher.

On net, I'm saying that sales data for ONE band over time (putting more weight on the newer material) is more reliable than a small amount of contrarians existing on a small internet forum in terms of deciding whether Riot Act is preferred by fans to Backspacer.

That is all.

IlluminEddie wrote:if you take each record and divide it by the number of years it's been out, to get an annual sales total, this is what you get:

Binaural: 57.8K
Riot Act: 46.1K
S/T: 100.8K
Backspacer: 154.5K

Except most of each record's sales occur during the year of its release. For example:

Binaural
2006: 740,000
2009: 747,000
2012: 752,000

Riot Act:
2006: 497,000
2009: 507,000
2012: 508,000

Pearl Jam:
2006: released
2009: 702,000
2012: 706,000

In that time span, Binaural sold just 12,000 copies. Riot Act, 11,000.

Compare that to Yield:
2006: 1,582,000
2009: 1,597,000
2012: 1,606,000

24,000 copies.

I don't have 2009 for the first three records, but let's look at the behemoth:

Ten:
2006: 9,365,000
2012: 10,018,000

McParadigm wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:if you take each record and divide it by the number of years it's been out, to get an annual sales total, this is what you get:

Binaural: 57.8K
Riot Act: 46.1K
S/T: 100.8K
Backspacer: 154.5K

Except most of each record's sales occur during the year of its release. For example:

Binaural
2006: 740,000
2009: 747,000
2012: 752,000

Riot Act:
2006: 497,000
2009: 507,000
2012: 508,000

Pearl Jam:
2006: released
2009: 702,000
2012: 706,000

In that time span, Binaural sold just 12,000 copies. Riot Act, 11,000.

Compare that to Yield:
2006: 1,582,000
2009: 1,597,000
2012: 1,606,000

24,000 copies.

I don't have 2009 for the first three records, but let's look at the behemoth:

Ten:
2006: 9,365,000
2012: 10,018,000

I think you can stop here. You just McParadigm'ed his ass.

McParadigm wrote:

IlluminEddie wrote:if you take each record and divide it by the number of years it's been out, to get an annual sales total, this is what you get:

Binaural: 57.8K
Riot Act: 46.1K
S/T: 100.8K
Backspacer: 154.5K

Except most of each record's sales occur during the year of its release. For example:

Binaural
2006: 740,000
2009: 747,000
2012: 752,000

Riot Act:
2006: 497,000
2009: 507,000
2012: 508,000

Pearl Jam:
2006: released
2009: 702,000
2012: 706,000

In that time span, Binaural sold just 12,000 copies. Riot Act, 11,000.

Compare that to Yield:
2006: 1,582,000
2009: 1,597,000
2012: 1,606,000

24,000 copies.

I don't have 2009 for the first three records, but let's look at the behemoth:

Ten:
2006: 9,365,000
2012: 10,018,000

Why does S/T say "released' and not have any data?

P.S. What you're showing is further proof of how much people don't give a shit about Riot Act and Binaural.

IlluminEddie wrote:
But, if you think that, what you're doing is unfair too. You're trying to provide scapegoats -like: well, they put out shit singles and this and that. For the new albums they could say, well we're fucking OLD now. We hit the height of our fame 20 years ago. We're dealing with a rise in piracy and so on. I think the amount of excuses they could make now is even higher.

I don't think that's true at all. I'm not trying to provide scapegoats; I'm not looking at the situation out of context. I think it's just naive to try to use albums sales as a barometer or the evidence of really anything beyond how many albums a record sold, removing the context of their release.

I still really don't get the point here, anyway. I mean, you're not making the argument that record sales are a good determinant of album quality, right?

Besides his fuzzy math growth rate assumption, he's also made the false assumption that everyone who bought Backspacer is a PJ fan. Its just nonsense.