Red Mosquito

BurtReynolds wrote:Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.

I'm pretty much a Golden Rule type guy. I try not to do bad things because I think of how awful it would be if such a bad thing happened to me. Nothing very supernatural involved in that.

BurtReynolds wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think most "atheists" really just replace one irrational set of beliefs with another irrational set of beliefs. I'd say its still religion.

I'll respond to this more in depth when I have access to a computer later, but right now I'll just say that atheism is a religion as much as "Off" is a TV channel.

I agree, but think most atheists are unknowingly acting and thinking as if it is a channel. edit: eh forget it.

Atheism is pretty easy to define: it's just a lack of a belief in supernatural powers. Now, some atheists may hold some additional beliefs like an open disdain for religion--anti-theism, if you will. But the two are not one and the same.

From my own experience in my family, including all but one of my immediate grandparents, uncles, aunts, and cousins, most atheists just don't seem to care that much. Religion's not our cup of tea, but it's for you, that's perfectly fine.

BurtReynolds wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think most "atheists" really just replace one irrational set of beliefs with another irrational set of beliefs. I'd say its still religion.

I'll respond to this more in depth when I have access to a computer later, but right now I'll just say that atheism is a religion as much as "Off" is a TV channel.

I agree, but think most atheists are unknowingly acting and thinking as if it is a channel. edit: eh forget it.

I'm responding based on your original comment, which I saw earlier.

I get what you're saying. And I think we're coming from a similar place; it sounds like we're both philosophical nihilists. But the difference is that it sounds like (tell me if I'm off base) you take the absolute nothingness of that as the conclusion, the final answer to the question. I'm the opposite; for me, that absolute nothingness was the beginning. It opened the door for understanding. Okay, so nothing has any inherent meaning. Morality is a construct invented by humans. Our entire is existence is absurd. But so what? Why does that invalidate us creating our own meaning, making our time matter by improving the quality of existence for others, for ourselves, and for future generations? Morality and progress is what being a human being is all about, both on an individual and a societal level. Our existence will persist whether we choose to be moral and questioning or not. So why not choose that path? It's certainly better than the alternative.

The fundamental meaninglessness of our place in the universe is, in my opinion, positive, inspiring, and heartening, not depressing and hopeless. We decide what we mean.

Green Habit wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think most "atheists" really just replace one irrational set of beliefs with another irrational set of beliefs. I'd say its still religion.

I'll respond to this more in depth when I have access to a computer later, but right now I'll just say that atheism is a religion as much as "Off" is a TV channel.

I agree, but think most atheists are unknowingly acting and thinking as if it is a channel. edit: eh forget it.

Atheism is pretty easy to define: it's just a lack of a belief in supernatural powers. Now, some atheists may hold some additional beliefs like an open disdain for religion--anti-theism, if you will. But the two are not one and the same.

Yep.

BurtReynolds wrote:Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.

A natural sense of empathy?

Green Habit wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.

I'm pretty much a Golden Rule type guy. I try not to do bad things because I think of how awful it would be if such a bad thing happened to me. Nothing very supernatural involved in that.

exactly

Jim Jefferies
One of the many great things about atheists is that we never get upset about cartoons.

dimejinky99 wrote:Jim Jefferies
One of the many great things about atheists is that we never get upset about cartoons.

Or apparently have a mechanism that says when something might be too soon to post - just to make oneself out to be superior in some way

Rangi Guy wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:Jim Jefferies
One of the many great things about atheists is that we never get upset about cartoons.

Or apparently have a mechanism that says when something might be too soon to post - just to make oneself out to be superior in some way

Too soon to post? What?

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Rangi Guy wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:Jim Jefferies
One of the many great things about atheists is that we never get upset about cartoons.

Or apparently have a mechanism that says when something might be too soon to post - just to make oneself out to be superior in some way

Too soon to post? What?

It just happened today that these people were massacred - all Jim Jeffories does posting shit like this does is make himself out to be superior to people of faith and potentially cause a further divide

Perhaps give it a bit of time for healing first

Rangi Guy wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

Rangi Guy wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:Jim Jefferies
One of the many great things about atheists is that we never get upset about cartoons.

Or apparently have a mechanism that says when something might be too soon to post - just to make oneself out to be superior in some way

Too soon to post? What?

It just happened today that these people were massacred - all Jim Jeffories does posting shit like this does is make himself out to be superior to people of faith and potentially cause a further divide

Perhaps give it a bit of time for healing first

Yeah, I'm sure the Islam-mocking satirists who were killed would be really upset by a semi-joke highlighting the absurdity of the massacre.

One thing that annoys me about atheists is that some of us are more than willing to take on Christianity, but then give Muslims some kind of "cultural" pass. Fuck that shit. I realize that has a lot to do with the fact that many Christians in power are rich white guys, but still. I hate it when liberal atheists aren't willing to take on Islam. That was always one of my favorite things about Hitchens, he took on everybody with equal gusto.

turned2black wrote:One thing that annoys me about atheists is that some of us are more than willing to take on Christianity, but then give Muslims some kind of "cultural" pass. Fuck that shit. I realize that has a lot to do with the fact that many Christians in power are rich white guys, but still. I hate it when liberal atheists aren't willing to take on Islam. That was always one of my favorite things about Hitchens, he took on everybody with equal gusto.

Well said!

turned2black wrote:One thing that annoys me about atheists is that some of us are more than willing to take on Christianity, but then give Muslims some kind of "cultural" pass. Fuck that shit. I realize that has a lot to do with the fact that many Christians in power are rich white guys, but still. I hate it when liberal atheists aren't willing to take on Islam. That was always one of my favorite things about Hitchens, he took on everybody with equal gusto.

Quite right, though I've never spent any time reading Hitchens.

Green Habit wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think most "atheists" really just replace one irrational set of beliefs with another irrational set of beliefs. I'd say its still religion.

I'll respond to this more in depth when I have access to a computer later, but right now I'll just say that atheism is a religion as much as "Off" is a TV channel.

I agree, but think most atheists are unknowingly acting and thinking as if it is a channel. edit: eh forget it.

Atheism is pretty easy to define: it's just a lack of a belief in supernatural powers. Now, some atheists may hold some additional beliefs like an open disdain for religion--anti-theism, if you will. But the two are not one and the same.

From my own experience in my family, including all but one of my immediate grandparents, uncles, aunts, and cousins, most atheists just don't seem to care that much. Religion's not our cup of tea, but it's for you, that's perfectly fine.

I was going by the wiki definition of religion as "an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence." (I also don't think God would necessarily be supernatural.)

I didn't mean atheism is a religion. It isn't. I meant many atheists are unintentionally creating their own mini-religions in some attempt at imposing order on the absurdity of existence, using an arbitrary moral system. I'm saying that any attempt at a universal set of morals is essentially religious belief.

If an all knowing, omnipotent God exists and you derive your morality from him, ok then. Its justified. If God doesn't exist (or for all practical purposes doesn't exist), then no one's morality is anchored to anything. Its built on a completely arbitrary foundation. Having capital "B" Beliefs strikes me as kinda hypocritical for an atheist. Beliefs always cut off any attempt to question their validity. Nothing is sure.

In any case, the game show guy's comments are silly. In the real world, behavior of the two groups aren't any different. If you think you can predict behavior based on it you are probably nuts.

turned2black wrote:One thing that annoys me about atheists is that some of us are more than willing to take on Christianity, but then give Muslims some kind of "cultural" pass. Fuck that shit. I realize that has a lot to do with the fact that many Christians in power are rich white guys, but still. I hate it when liberal atheists aren't willing to take on Islam. That was always one of my favorite things about Hitchens, he took on everybody with equal gusto.

100% agree. Islam is fucking poison.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:I think most "atheists" really just replace one irrational set of beliefs with another irrational set of beliefs. I'd say its still religion.

I'll respond to this more in depth when I have access to a computer later, but right now I'll just say that atheism is a religion as much as "Off" is a TV channel.

I agree, but think most atheists are unknowingly acting and thinking as if it is a channel. edit: eh forget it.

I'm responding based on your original comment, which I saw earlier.

I get what you're saying. And I think we're coming from a similar place; it sounds like we're both philosophical nihilists. But the difference is that it sounds like (tell me if I'm off base) you take the absolute nothingness of that as the conclusion, the final answer to the question. I'm the opposite; for me, that absolute nothingness was the beginning. It opened the door for understanding. Okay, so nothing has any inherent meaning. Morality is a construct invented by humans. Our entire is existence is absurd. But so what? Why does that invalidate us creating our own meaning, making our time matter by improving the quality of existence for others, for ourselves, and for future generations? Morality and progress is what being a human being is all about, both on an individual and a societal level. Our existence will persist whether we choose to be moral and questioning or not. So why not choose that path? It's certainly better than the alternative.

The fundamental meaninglessness of our place in the universe is, in my opinion, positive, inspiring, and heartening, not depressing and hopeless. We decide what we mean.

I think we're more or less on the same page. I'm just curious what others thought. It doesn't seem like many people, atheist or theist, give much thought as to where their morals came from.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

turned2black wrote:One thing that annoys me about atheists is that some of us are more than willing to take on Christianity, but then give Muslims some kind of "cultural" pass. Fuck that shit. I realize that has a lot to do with the fact that many Christians in power are rich white guys, but still. I hate it when liberal atheists aren't willing to take on Islam. That was always one of my favorite things about Hitchens, he took on everybody with equal gusto.

100% agree. Islam is fucking poison.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and it's frustrating because my Muslim friends and family are genuinely the warmest, kindest, most generous and thoughtful people I know-- more than any Christian or atheist I've ever met. I want to point to the egregious violence, cruelty and hatefulness in the Quran and say HOW IS IT POSSIBLE YOU'RE NOT JUMPING SHIP. HOW

theplatypus wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

turned2black wrote:One thing that annoys me about atheists is that some of us are more than willing to take on Christianity, but then give Muslims some kind of "cultural" pass. Fuck that shit. I realize that has a lot to do with the fact that many Christians in power are rich white guys, but still. I hate it when liberal atheists aren't willing to take on Islam. That was always one of my favorite things about Hitchens, he took on everybody with equal gusto.

100% agree. Islam is fucking poison.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and it's frustrating because my Muslim friends and family are genuinely the warmest, kindest, most generous and thoughtful people I know-- more than any Christian or atheist I've ever met. I want to point to the egregious violence, cruelty and hatefulness in the Quran and say HOW IS IT POSSIBLE YOU'RE NOT JUMPING SHIP. HOW

I imagine it must be similar to the cherry-picking Christians do, no? Believe in the parts of the religion you like, and ignore all the nasty shit?

theplatypus wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

turned2black wrote:One thing that annoys me about atheists is that some of us are more than willing to take on Christianity, but then give Muslims some kind of "cultural" pass. Fuck that shit. I realize that has a lot to do with the fact that many Christians in power are rich white guys, but still. I hate it when liberal atheists aren't willing to take on Islam. That was always one of my favorite things about Hitchens, he took on everybody with equal gusto.

100% agree. Islam is fucking poison.

I've thought about that a lot over the years, and it's frustrating because my Muslim friends and family are genuinely the warmest, kindest, most generous and thoughtful people I know-- more than any Christian or atheist I've ever met. I want to point to the egregious violence, cruelty and hatefulness in the Quran and say HOW IS IT POSSIBLE YOU'RE NOT JUMPING SHIP. HOW

Then they'd be doing the selective/cherry picking of Gods words & laws, like the Catholics/Christians do. They're all in, the Muslims. No picking n choosing. Gotta admire that.