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Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 9:52 am
by stip
Well the larger point is about undoing consequences of significant actions that adversely affect characters which is why I mentioned it. Is the end of empire less powerful because Luke gets a new hand and Han gets unfrozen? Or the death of Obi wan knowing he becomes a force ghost?
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 10:28 am
by stip
And in the context of Platy’s point death is possibly more significant in serialized storytelling - you spend more time with characters, you expect to see them again, the impact of their absence is magnified knowing the story goes on without them.
But in a comic/fantasy story where there is magic and the ability to cheat death baked into the fabric of the world, you can never assume a death is final. Even wolverine could come back if they wanted to make Logan 2. But that would probably suck because the death was baked into his character arc - and that is what is more significant. The death matters because of the attachment to the character AND the impact it has on his story. And in a world where death can be impermanent it can and does still matter for its story value, and undoing it matters for its story value.
- Spoiler: show
- which, again, is why the mass death at the end of infinity war could be easily undone in a good story, but the death of Loki would not. Those characters died in service of the narrative - in a very powerful moment - and can be brought back in an equally powerful moment in a properly told story. But Loki died completing his story. There isn’t much more for that character to do, undoing his death would be harder.
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 11:17 am
by epilogue
stip wrote:Well the larger point is about undoing consequences of significant actions that adversely affect characters which is why I mentioned it. Is the end of empire less powerful because Luke gets a new hand and Han gets unfrozen? Or the death of Obi wan knowing he becomes a force ghost?
This might be your point. For me, death isn't just the undoing of consequences, though. Thawing and prostheses are completely different than dying.
Of course there are different rules for different stories/universes, etc. But, for me, in general, cheating death by removing its permanence is bad storytelling. It lowers the stakes to zero and bores me. In general. Maybe this pulls it off.
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 11:27 am
by dimejinky99
durdencommatyler wrote:I mean, I'll give you Gandalf. I honestly don't know. If he dies, literally, and literally comes back to life, then that story is worse than I originally thought.
But Han doesn't count.
He’s a maiar, pretty much an angel and immortal, one of five sent to middle earth to oppose Sauron and inspire /motivate(manipulate) people to oppose him as he’s not allowed oppose him with force/method equal to saurons. He does/doesn’t die but is sent back as he’s the only one of the five still maintaining his purpose and as an immortal spirit the body he’s in is just a vessel and much lesser than his true spirit/nature.
Plus it’s a booody good metaphor for all is lost, nope, rebirth, turn of the tides yadda yadda
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 11:30 am
by stip
durdencommatyler wrote:stip wrote:Well the larger point is about undoing consequences of significant actions that adversely affect characters which is why I mentioned it. Is the end of empire less powerful because Luke gets a new hand and Han gets unfrozen? Or the death of Obi wan knowing he becomes a force ghost?
This might be your point. For me, death isn't just the undoing of consequences, though. Thawing and prostheses are completely different than dying.
Of course there are different rules for different stories/universes, etc. But, for me, in general, cheating death by removing its permanence is bad storytelling. It lowers the stakes to zero and bores me. In general. Maybe this pulls it off.
there is a nice article that touches on this on BirthMoviesDeath that touches on this i will link to later
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 11:41 am
by stip
Here it is.
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/04/29/ ... -mysticism
Spoilers - so I would wait until you see it.
The deaths that happen in infinity war are very impactful in the frame of the movie/moment, appropriate to the themes, the narrative, and almost always experienced by the characters and survivors in ways that feel real (as real as this stuff can be) We should appreciate them in the moment even though we know that some may not last. Just like the audience walking out of empire assumed solo was gone from the story. The magnificence of his final line is not undercut by his return in the next movie, even when you know he is coming back (as we now do)
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 11:44 am
by stip
And I’m not usually a spoiler phobic guy but this experience was greatly enhanced (I think) by not knowing what was going to happen (and my predictions were mostly wrong). So I would really wait
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 11:53 am
by epilogue
dimejinky99 wrote:durdencommatyler wrote:I mean, I'll give you Gandalf. I honestly don't know. If he dies, literally, and literally comes back to life, then that story is worse than I originally thought.
But Han doesn't count.
He’s a maiar, pretty much an angel and immortal, one of five sent to middle earth to oppose Sauron and inspire /motivate(manipulate) people to oppose him as he’s not allowed oppose him with force/method equal to saurons. He does/doesn’t die but is sent back as he’s the only one of the five still maintaining his purpose and as an immortal spirit the body he’s in is just a vessel and much lesser than his true spirit/nature.
Plus it’s a booody good metaphor for all is lost, nope, rebirth, turn of the tides yadda yadda
Ah. Ok, yeah that's interesting. I like that.
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 11:54 am
by epilogue
stip wrote:And I’m not usually a spoiler phobic guy but this experience was greatly enhanced (I think) by not knowing what was going to happen (and my predictions were mostly wrong). So I would really wait
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 3:38 pm
by dimejinky99
durdencommatyler wrote:dimejinky99 wrote:durdencommatyler wrote:I mean, I'll give you Gandalf. I honestly don't know. If he dies, literally, and literally comes back to life, then that story is worse than I originally thought.
But Han doesn't count.
He’s a maiar, pretty much an angel and immortal, one of five sent to middle earth to oppose Sauron and inspire /motivate(manipulate) people to oppose him as he’s not allowed oppose him with force/method equal to saurons. He does/doesn’t die but is sent back as he’s the only one of the five still maintaining his purpose and as an immortal spirit the body he’s in is just a vessel and much lesser than his true spirit/nature.
Plus it’s a booody good metaphor for all is lost, nope, rebirth, turn of the tides yadda yadda
Ah. Ok, yeah that's interesting. I like that.
As an aside there’s a fun nod and wink to the other two wizards in the hobbit movie. We know Saruman and Radagast are two but Bilbo asks Gandalf who were the other two and Gandalf says ‘do you know, I’ve rather forgotten their names’. A little nugget for all the Tolkien die hard fans as Tolkien, reallly bizarrely, wrote that five came to middle earth and never wrote another word about the other two at all
which is truly mental given he developed everything else in his world to such painstaking degree and fans have always wondered and wanted more on the missing two. Don’t think he even named them.
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 3:39 pm
by bune
Wow, what a movie.
I saw that Gunn helped out on the Guardians dialogue and you can tell because Drax was an idiot. He had some good bits but come on, did we need to waste those 2-3 minutes watching him eat slowly because he was 'invisible'?
One thing I've seen few people talk about is what the gauntlet and his arm look like post-snap. They're only shown for a second in the "What did you do?" scene and then again for a brief moment when Thanos is taking his spa trip, but they are messed up.
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 3:42 pm
by dimejinky99
Also godammit Thanos, just adjust reality to make twice the amount of resources.
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 3:46 pm
by stip
that Drax bit was hysterical
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 3:53 pm
by bune
stip wrote:Here it is.
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2018/04/29/ ... -mysticism
Spoilers - so I would wait until you see it.
The deaths that happen in infinity war are very impactful in the frame of the movie/moment, appropriate to the themes, the narrative, and almost always experienced by the characters and survivors in ways that feel real (as real as this stuff can be) We should appreciate them in the moment even though we know that some may not last. Just like the audience walking out of empire assumed solo was gone from the story. The magnificence of his final line is not undercut by his return in the next movie, even when you know he is coming back (as we now do)
Very interesting article, thanks.
Also reminded me that the image that ended the trailer didn't happen:
You can't even say it's from pt2 because half of those people are dead now. Wait...
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 4:02 pm
by stip
its an unused shot - nothing to read into.
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 4:08 pm
by bune
Oh I know. Much like the rest of the trailer that had to hide how many stones Thanos had at different points - on Titan, fighting Cap, etc.
I felt like the whole "lets take the stone off Vision" thing was wrapped up in a weird way. Like they were working on it for a long time...maybe Shuri will be able to bring him back online sans stone in the next movie? Provided she's still alive, I guess.
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 4:11 pm
by E.H. Ruddock
My biggest concern is
- Spoiler: show
- how will Tony and Nebula get off of Titan? Assuming all ships were destroyed when that moon collapsed on the planet
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 4:16 pm
by dimejinky99
- Spoiler: show
- isnt strange still alive? I can remember. He can portal them out. If he’s not dead. I need to see this again.
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 4:22 pm
by E.H. Ruddock
No
Re: Avengers: Infinity War 2018
Posted: Mon April 30, 2018 4:24 pm
by Jorge
- Spoiler: show
- Strange could've easily used a portal to hack of Thanos's hand, as we saw him do earlier in the film. I really thought they were setting that up