Fall 2013 North American Tour

General Pearl Jam discussion.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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stip wrote:I had no idea that subset existed. I've never really been a huge fan of a band where I had fundamental philosophic differences on matters that were important. I wonder how, if at all, it would affect my relationship with the music?
First you'd find excuses. Then you'd eventually give up on the band or change your beliefs. Or at least, that's been my personal experience.

But then, this is coming from a guy who walked away from his church because they called Do The Evolution wicked and an "attempt at brainwashing righteousness." Whatever that means.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:I had no idea that subset existed. I've never really been a huge fan of a band where I had fundamental philosophic differences on matters that were important. I wonder how, if at all, it would affect my relationship with the music?
First you'd find excuses. Then you'd eventually give up on the band or change your beliefs. Or at least, that's been my personal experience.

But then, this is coming from a guy who walked away from his church because they called Do The Evolution wicked and an "attempt at brainwashing righteousness." Whatever that means.
did you play DTE in bible class or something?
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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harmless wrote:
3) I don't think Ed, or PJ, rail against rich people. I never felt that the war they were waging was about class (good people have money too, and they know that). I think that Ed is more worried that religious fundamentalism and GOP / Republican attitude leads to prejudice and neo-fascism. That's not about money, even though money tends to accompany those types of people. I think the Ticketmaster battle they were in back in the day was more about them wanting their fans to have cheaper tickets. That's all. It wasn't a giant ethical standard they'd keep for all time.

Have you heard the song Soon Forget?

I agree with you to an extent if you're talking about the actual lyrics of the songs. However, he has spent plenty of time damning the haves vs. the have nots in his concert rants.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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@SkitchP wrote:I agree with you to an extent if you're talking about the actual lyrics of the songs. However, he has spent plenty of time damning the haves vs. the have nots in his concert rants.
I remember cringing at his comments about the "richies" in the luxury boxes at All State Arena (Chicago) in 2000. And that was back when I thought Ed was pretty right on about everything nearly all the time.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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spike wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:I had no idea that subset existed. I've never really been a huge fan of a band where I had fundamental philosophic differences on matters that were important. I wonder how, if at all, it would affect my relationship with the music?
First you'd find excuses. Then you'd eventually give up on the band or change your beliefs. Or at least, that's been my personal experience.

But then, this is coming from a guy who walked away from his church because they called Do The Evolution wicked and an "attempt at brainwashing righteousness." Whatever that means.
did you play DTE in bible class or something?
Our youth group used it as an example. I didn't play it. They brought the lyrics out and read them aloud and then told us why it was Satanic and a bad influence. I immediately stood up and told them that I disagreed with their interpretation of the song. Then I told them that Pearl Jam had done more for me than god had, and walked out. Never went back.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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walked out all the way to new york city!
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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spike wrote:walked out all the way to new york city!
Aw huh
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

Post by stip »

@SkitchP wrote:
harmless wrote:
3) I don't think Ed, or PJ, rail against rich people. I never felt that the war they were waging was about class (good people have money too, and they know that). I think that Ed is more worried that religious fundamentalism and GOP / Republican attitude leads to prejudice and neo-fascism. That's not about money, even though money tends to accompany those types of people. I think the Ticketmaster battle they were in back in the day was more about them wanting their fans to have cheaper tickets. That's all. It wasn't a giant ethical standard they'd keep for all time.

Have you heard the song Soon Forget?

I agree with you to an extent if you're talking about the actual lyrics of the songs. However, he has spent plenty of time damning the haves vs. the have nots in his concert rants.

most people who rail against 'the rich' don't hate money per se (although I'm sure some do). it usually reflects a disgust with either the privilege that comes with wealth, the way in which excessive concern about money monetizes all other values, the oligarchic power that comes with wealth, or when wealthy people horde wealth, rather than contributing to the well being of the have nots (through charity and especially through supporting laws and social arrangements that address these imbalances). You can be perfectly wealthy personally and not run afoul of any of these categories. And having money is nice. It makes your life easier, makes you feel secure, and lets you do fun things.

The same is true of the corporate rants. People who are anti corporate are usually railing against the consequences of corporate power, not the physical existence of them. Shit, even Michael Moore acknowledges that.


And none of this stuff is addressed by you personally becoming an ascetic. The solution is not giving all your money to charity. it is addressing the larger structural conditions that create these power imbalances. That is what a sophisticated anti-corporate/anti oligarchic stance will reflect. That's where pearl jam is today. It's been what has always been best about their critique. It's really been what the critique has always been about--it's just that earlier there were also the gestures that were probably psychologically necessary to deal with the shock of suddenly becoming rich, the sense of unworthiness (why do I suddenly have privilege when I know all these good people who don't), and to try and avoid feeling like a traitor to your class. There have also been juvenile drunken rants, but that's what they are. Not a considered position.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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You're smart, stip. You should write a book.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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durdencommatyler wrote:I told them that Pearl Jam had done more for me than god had
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

Post by stip »

durdencommatyler wrote:
spike wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:I had no idea that subset existed. I've never really been a huge fan of a band where I had fundamental philosophic differences on matters that were important. I wonder how, if at all, it would affect my relationship with the music?
First you'd find excuses. Then you'd eventually give up on the band or change your beliefs. Or at least, that's been my personal experience.

But then, this is coming from a guy who walked away from his church because they called Do The Evolution wicked and an "attempt at brainwashing righteousness." Whatever that means.
did you play DTE in bible class or something?
Our youth group used it as an example. I didn't play it. They brought the lyrics out and read them aloud and then told us why it was Satanic and a bad influence. I immediately stood up and told them that I disagreed with their interpretation of the song. Then I told them that Pearl Jam had done more for me than god had, and walked out. Never went back.
that's pretty cool
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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stip wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
spike wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
stip wrote:I had no idea that subset existed. I've never really been a huge fan of a band where I had fundamental philosophic differences on matters that were important. I wonder how, if at all, it would affect my relationship with the music?
First you'd find excuses. Then you'd eventually give up on the band or change your beliefs. Or at least, that's been my personal experience.

But then, this is coming from a guy who walked away from his church because they called Do The Evolution wicked and an "attempt at brainwashing righteousness." Whatever that means.
did you play DTE in bible class or something?
Our youth group used it as an example. I didn't play it. They brought the lyrics out and read them aloud and then told us why it was Satanic and a bad influence. I immediately stood up and told them that I disagreed with their interpretation of the song. Then I told them that Pearl Jam had done more for me than god had, and walked out. Never went back.
that's pretty cool
Thanks. It was one of the first times in my life that I ever really stood up for myself in any kind of profound way. That youth group was really important to me for about a year and a half. We'd started to drift apart before that incident. But that was really the final straw. I'd had enough. I didn't need it anymore. Didn't even want it anymore.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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stip wrote:
@SkitchP wrote:
harmless wrote:
3) I don't think Ed, or PJ, rail against rich people. I never felt that the war they were waging was about class (good people have money too, and they know that). I think that Ed is more worried that religious fundamentalism and GOP / Republican attitude leads to prejudice and neo-fascism. That's not about money, even though money tends to accompany those types of people. I think the Ticketmaster battle they were in back in the day was more about them wanting their fans to have cheaper tickets. That's all. It wasn't a giant ethical standard they'd keep for all time.

Have you heard the song Soon Forget?

I agree with you to an extent if you're talking about the actual lyrics of the songs. However, he has spent plenty of time damning the haves vs. the have nots in his concert rants.

most people who rail against 'the rich' don't hate money per se (although I'm sure some do). it usually reflects a disgust with either the privilege that comes with wealth, the way in which excessive concern about money monetizes all other values, the oligarchic power that comes with wealth, or when wealthy people horde wealth, rather than contributing to the well being of the have nots (through charity and especially through supporting laws and social arrangements that address these imbalances). You can be perfectly wealthy personally and not run afoul of any of these categories. And having money is nice. It makes your life easier, makes you feel secure, and lets you do fun things.

The same is true of the corporate rants. People who are anti corporate are usually railing against the consequences of corporate power, not the physical existence of them. Shit, even Michael Moore acknowledges that.


And none of this stuff is addressed by you personally becoming an ascetic. The solution is not giving all your money to charity. it is addressing the larger structural conditions that create these power imbalances. That is what a sophisticated anti-corporate/anti oligarchic stance will reflect. That's where pearl jam is today. It's been what has always been best about their critique. It's really been what the critique has always been about--it's just that earlier there were also the gestures that were probably psychologically necessary to deal with the shock of suddenly becoming rich, the sense of unworthiness (why do I suddenly have privilege when I know all these good people who don't), and to try and avoid feeling like a traitor to your class. There have also been juvenile drunken rants, but that's what they are. Not a considered position.

okay. Still rubs me the wrong way.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

Post by epilogue »

@SkitchP wrote:
stip wrote:
@SkitchP wrote:
harmless wrote:
3) I don't think Ed, or PJ, rail against rich people. I never felt that the war they were waging was about class (good people have money too, and they know that). I think that Ed is more worried that religious fundamentalism and GOP / Republican attitude leads to prejudice and neo-fascism. That's not about money, even though money tends to accompany those types of people. I think the Ticketmaster battle they were in back in the day was more about them wanting their fans to have cheaper tickets. That's all. It wasn't a giant ethical standard they'd keep for all time.

Have you heard the song Soon Forget?

I agree with you to an extent if you're talking about the actual lyrics of the songs. However, he has spent plenty of time damning the haves vs. the have nots in his concert rants.

most people who rail against 'the rich' don't hate money per se (although I'm sure some do). it usually reflects a disgust with either the privilege that comes with wealth, the way in which excessive concern about money monetizes all other values, the oligarchic power that comes with wealth, or when wealthy people horde wealth, rather than contributing to the well being of the have nots (through charity and especially through supporting laws and social arrangements that address these imbalances). You can be perfectly wealthy personally and not run afoul of any of these categories. And having money is nice. It makes your life easier, makes you feel secure, and lets you do fun things.

The same is true of the corporate rants. People who are anti corporate are usually railing against the consequences of corporate power, not the physical existence of them. Shit, even Michael Moore acknowledges that.


And none of this stuff is addressed by you personally becoming an ascetic. The solution is not giving all your money to charity. it is addressing the larger structural conditions that create these power imbalances. That is what a sophisticated anti-corporate/anti oligarchic stance will reflect. That's where pearl jam is today. It's been what has always been best about their critique. It's really been what the critique has always been about--it's just that earlier there were also the gestures that were probably psychologically necessary to deal with the shock of suddenly becoming rich, the sense of unworthiness (why do I suddenly have privilege when I know all these good people who don't), and to try and avoid feeling like a traitor to your class. There have also been juvenile drunken rants, but that's what they are. Not a considered position.

okay. Still rubs me the wrong way.
The rants?
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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durdencommatyler wrote:
The rants?

The do as I say, not as I do thing he had going on for awhile..

Dont Drive Me, Im An SUV..... unless you need a ride from the Hotel to appear on Letterman!
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

Post by spike »

ed doesn't need SUVs to make his life tragic.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

Post by epilogue »

@SkitchP wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
The rants?

The do as I say, not as I do thing he had going on for awhile..

Dont Drive Me, Im An SUV..... unless you need a ride from the Hotel to appear on Letterman!
Hypocrisy of any kind is annoying.

But, you know, I never heard that SUV thing.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

Post by @SkitchP »

durdencommatyler wrote:
@SkitchP wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
The rants?

The do as I say, not as I do thing he had going on for awhile..

Dont Drive Me, Im An SUV..... unless you need a ride from the Hotel to appear on Letterman!
Hypocrisy of any kind is annoying.

But, you know, I never heard that SUV thing.

Really? That was probably the last time pearl jam was relevant to the mainstream. It was on the night he impaled the Bush mask on the mic stand i think.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

Post by epilogue »

@SkitchP wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
@SkitchP wrote:
durdencommatyler wrote:
The rants?

The do as I say, not as I do thing he had going on for awhile..

Dont Drive Me, Im An SUV..... unless you need a ride from the Hotel to appear on Letterman!
Hypocrisy of any kind is annoying.

But, you know, I never heard that SUV thing.

Really? That was probably the last time pearl jam was relevant to the mainstream. It was on the night he impaled the Bush mask on the mic stand i think.
Was that in Denver?

I obviously remember that happening. But I don't think I ever head the SUV thing. Unless some of it made its way into PJ20 and I just don't remember.
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Re: Fall 2013 North American Tour

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(moved)
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