Red Mosquito

Mickey wrote:How can you care about one thing when in fact there are also other things??

For B:

tree_ wrote:For B:

tree_ wrote:https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf

...for all the eerie similarities between the current spate of police interactions with African Americans and the historical injustices which remain unhealed, the current debate is virtually data free. Understanding the extent to which there are racial differences in police use of force and (if any) whether those differences might be due
to discrimination by police or explained by other factors at the time of the incident is a question of tremendous social importance, and the subject of this paper.

In stark contrast to non-lethal uses of force, we find no racial differences in officer-involved shootings on either the extensive or intensive margins. Using data from Houston, Texas – where we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with police where lethal force may have been justified – we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8 percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites. Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely. Both coefficients are statistically insignificant. Adding controls for civilian demographics, officer demographics, encounter characteristics, type of weapon civilian was carrying, and year fixed effects, the black (resp. Hispanic) coefficient is 0.924 (0.417) (resp. 1.256 (0.595)). These coefficients are remarkably robust across alternative empirical specifications and subsets of the data. Partitioning the data in myriad ways, we find no evidence of racial discrimination in officer-involved shootings. Investigating the intensive margin – the timing of shootings or how many bullets were discharged in the endeavor – there are no detectable racial differences.5

The stats you posted do not account for important variables. Read this paper closely.

I'd love to hear more about the important problem of black-on-black crime in America and how to solve it. Especially in the media. It seems like people are scared to discuss it. Of course a huge factor must be the history of racism in America.

B wrote:

tree_ wrote:For Rob:

tree_ wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls


Black or African American victims of murder in 2016: 2,870
Committed by whites: 243
Committed by blacks: 2,570

White American victims of murder: 3,499
Committed by whites: 2,854
Committed by blacks: 533

There's a 7% difference, unlike the 300% difference in a black's likelihood to be killed by a policeman.

Yes, murder is a problem for whites too. We should be discussing all of it. The point is, the narrative of cops hunting blacks in the streets is not only false, it's not the important discussion that should be had.

tree_ wrote:

B wrote:

tree_ wrote:For Rob:

tree_ wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls


Black or African American victims of murder in 2016: 2,870
Committed by whites: 243
Committed by blacks: 2,570

White American victims of murder: 3,499
Committed by whites: 2,854
Committed by blacks: 533

There's a 7% difference, unlike the 300% difference in a black's likelihood to be killed by a policeman.

Yes, murder is a problem for whites too. We should be discussing all of it. The point is, the narrative of cops hunting blacks in the streets is not only false, it's not the important discussion that should be had.

And no one has said cops are hunting blacks in the streets.

B did, however, present you with factual statistics that totally disprove your narrative, but, like you always do, you dismiss them. Racist troll.

Here's a better picture of the disparity:

323 million US citizens in 2016

White people were 61.27% of the population.
3,499 of 197,902,100 were murdered, which is 0.0017680459176532% of the white population.


Black people were 13.31% of the population.
2,870 of 42,991,300 were murdered, which is 0.0066757692835527% of the black population.

- Blacks who murder blacks
- Cops who murder blacks (or really, anyone)

Only one of these groups is a taxpayer-funded, heavily-regimented, paid workforce who is charged with protecting the community.

And though I lack the data to back this suspicion, only one of these groups is more likely than not to walk away from their trail without facing punishment and is also protected from civil lawsuits.

wease wrote:

tree_ wrote:

B wrote:

tree_ wrote:For Rob:

tree_ wrote:https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-3.xls


Black or African American victims of murder in 2016: 2,870
Committed by whites: 243
Committed by blacks: 2,570

White American victims of murder: 3,499
Committed by whites: 2,854
Committed by blacks: 533

There's a 7% difference, unlike the 300% difference in a black's likelihood to be killed by a policeman.

Yes, murder is a problem for whites too. We should be discussing all of it. The point is, the narrative of cops hunting blacks in the streets is not only false, it's not the important discussion that should be had.

And no one has said cops are hunting blacks in the streets.

B did, however, present you with factual statistics that totally disprove your narrative, but, like you always do, you dismiss them. Racist troll.

The popular narrative is cops are racist. I took B's stats and replied to them with more stats. Read what I wrote.

Something that's gone fairly unremarked is that tree's continued insistence that policing can't be racist because "black cops shoot black people, too" actually underscores the argument that the problem is systemic and cultural, rather than the result of malicious bigotry from individual officers. He's proving other people's point for them.

digster wrote:Something that's gone fairly unremarked is that tree's continued insistence that policing can't be racist because "black cops shoot black people, too" actually underscores the argument that the problem is systemic and cultural, rather than the result of malicious bigotry from individual officers. He's proving other people's point for them.

It is actually true that police do use more non-lethal force against blacks than other races. But all I'm saying is the popular narrative of police killing blacks more is incorrect and not the mostly relevant issue.

Actually read this

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/file ... _fryer.pdf

I'm only posting and reiterating facts.

Again, I think you'd be better off responding to what people are asking, as opposed to giving us whatever pops up on google when you search for "cops aren't racist + FACTS"

digster wrote:Again, I think you'd be better off responding to what people are asking, as opposed to giving us whatever pops up on google when you search for "cops aren't racist + FACTS"

You assume too much.

tree, back when this godforsaken escapade started, when you were talking about what an open mind you have, the first things that apparently came up on your journey where the Rubin Report (who's founder spent yesterday tweeting about how having children watch a Sesame Street program about racism is "child abuse"), a conservative think tank and an op-ed from the author of a book called The Diversity Delusion who has been a staunch proponent of racial profiling.

Now, that's not me saying that any conservative publication or paper is inherently invalid at all, but what seems more likely? Did you just happen upon things that neatly correlated with the position you already had in mind, or did you seek out what you needed to back up the thought you already had? I highly doubt you'd be as willing to agree wholesale with the FACTS embedded in an op-ed from the founder of AllCopsArePigs.com. Maybe I'm wrong.

Coupled with the fact that you've been routinely ignoring people's responses makes this all feel like there's not much point to all this (which, considering we're arguing about race relations on a Pearl Jam message board, is probably self-evident).

He's a fucking troll, digster. All he's doing is trolling.

And he's a racist.

digster wrote:tree, back when this godforsaken escapade started, when you were talking about what an open mind you have, the first things that apparently came up on your journey where the Rubin Report (who's founder has been spending his morning tweeting about how having children watch a Sesame Street program about racism is "child abuse"), a conservative think tank and an op-ed from the author of a book called The Diversity Delusion who has been a staunch proponent of racial profiling.

Now, that's not me saying that any conservative publication or paper is inherently invalid at all, but what seems more likely? Did you just happen upon things that neatly correlated with the position you already had in mind, or did you seek out what you needed to back up the thought you already had? I highly doubt you'd be as willing to agree wholesale with the FACTS embedded in an op-ed from the founder of AllCopsArePigs.com.

Coupled with the fact that you've been routinely ignoring people's responses makes this all feel like there's not much point to all this (which, considering we're arguing about race relations on a Pearl Jam message board, is probably self-evident).

The link I just posted above is research which began with the goal of uncovering systemic racism in policing. It found the opposite to be correct. You keep attacking me for my choice in media, some of it questionable, sure. I'm not a Dave Rubin follower. I don't even know who the founder of his show is. Is it Dave Rubin? I don't care. The lady who wrote that book, I knew nothing about her and thought I'd post that article to see what you guys had to say about it. I wasn't proclaiming her or the article to be one step higher than god's own truth. I don't believe everything I read or hear. I'm simply in pursuit of the truth. I don't know what you're referring to when you say I'm not replying to people. If you can point something out, I will reply to it.

Hey wease. Am I a racist troll? Just want your opinion.

B wrote: - Blacks who murder blacks
- Cops who murder blacks (or really, anyone)

tree side for a minute, these two things are not really comparable. The number one cause of death for black men under 45 is homicide (for white men it's car accidents). Only roughly 1 in 50 of the gun related deaths of black men are police involved. Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

Bi_3 wrote: Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

Rob wrote:

Bi_3 wrote: Cops are not going out there to kill black citizens or anyone. It's extremely rare, but highly sensationalized, so it gives the impression of being a systemic issue. Again, according to the DOJ, in 2015 there were 53,000,000 police contacts and 1,000 deaths. Cops are not a death threat to anyone.

These stats are distinct from the historical use of police violence to control black citizens and the resulting culture of distrust in the police and law enforcement institutions. That is very real and still exists in many places today in the form biased policing and brutality... but the idea that cops are out there murdering black people (or really, anyone) is anecdotal and not backed up by reality.

How do we make sure that this bias & brutality is dealt with if we don't make it known as loudly & clearly as possible? Are we gonna post facts on community forums and stand silently off the side of the road and hold signs up? I don't think that plan will work. It's not sensationalism to the people today who live it. It's about time.

People are putting their outrage in the wrong place. If they truly care for the lives of people and social justice, they should he addressing the actual threat. At the very least, they should be allowed to discuss it openly without being called a racist.

tree_ wrote:For B:

tree_ wrote:https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf

...for all the eerie similarities between the current spate of police interactions with African Americans and the historical injustices which remain unhealed, the current debate is virtually data free. Understanding the extent to which there are racial differences in police use of force and (if any) whether those differences might be due
to discrimination by police or explained by other factors at the time of the incident is a question of tremendous social importance, and the subject of this paper.

In stark contrast to non-lethal uses of force, we find no racial differences in officer-involved shootings on either the extensive or intensive margins. Using data from Houston, Texas – where we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with police where lethal force may have been justified – we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8 percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites. Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely. Both coefficients are statistically insignificant. Adding controls for civilian demographics, officer demographics, encounter characteristics, type of weapon civilian was carrying, and year fixed effects, the black (resp. Hispanic) coefficient is 0.924 (0.417) (resp. 1.256 (0.595)). These coefficients are remarkably robust across alternative empirical specifications and subsets of the data. Partitioning the data in myriad ways, we find no evidence of racial discrimination in officer-involved shootings. Investigating the intensive margin – the timing of shootings or how many bullets were discharged in the endeavor – there are no detectable racial differences.5

Cops killing innocent black people is a problem because cops killing innocent people of any kind is a problem. But as I said 10 or 15 pages ago police brutality against black people is relatively low on the list of systemic issues black people have faced and continue to face in this country. (That does not mean it's insignificant, though.)

Again, if the only racial problem in this country were rogue racist cops THAT WOULD BE AMAZING. Like if we could boil down the obstacles black people face to "there's a few bad apples out there that abuse their power every once in awhile" we'd be light years ahead of where we sadly are.

Thank you for posting a study. I've seen similar data before and obviously it presents information that is different than the prevailing narrative. I think it misses a huge issue, though, which is the frequency of interactions with police that white people and black people each have. There is a significantly larger police presence in poor black areas, black people are stopped by the police at much higher rates, etc., etc., that can cause those numbers to be misleading. Additionally, if there is much higher likelihood of an innocent black person interacting with the police than innocent white people doing so this could also skew the rates the study cites because a larger number of the interactions with black probably end quickly and uneventfully since they never should have been stopped in the first place. I'm also curious if they controlled for suicide by cop which I understand is more likely to be done by white people than anybody else.

This issue is much bigger than racist police.