stupidmop wrote:I don't believe backspacer and most of what we've heard on LB is playing to thier strengths. Or thier roots. Though what you think thier strengths are will be subjective I guess.
They haven't done anything too out there with thier promotion this time. Little YouTube snippets and listening parties seem pearl jam to me. Unlike target-gate.
I don't think they're clawing for money, I think they've just come to enjoy the big party sing along aspect of the live shows more than anything else. They want the excited people jumping around singing along to betterman and black and I'm sure they're hoping, sirens.
that's almost certainly true. They want their music to be a celebration, and so their songs have a more celebratory feel--a solidarity grounded in the world not being an awful place, and being united in joy, rather than a solidarity grounded in the world being a horrible and confusing place, but at least we're not alone in it together.
I think they made their best work with the later perspective. I'm so thankful that music exists. But I'm not sure it's really what I want from them at this point. I think it might feel pretty inauthentic and stale.
Which work does later perspective refer to here?
I was referring to the part that I bolded
stupidmop wrote:
I don't think it'd feel inauthentic if they were releasing no code - riot act or whatever now, not because they're *the best ones* or someshit, but because the subject matter is pretty broad, at least to me, bar Im sure a few songs. If they were writing shit about rolling models in blood or angery songs for the sake of being angry or 'grungy' yeah that would feel inauthentic.
those middle records, not surprisingly (well, Yield and No Code--Binaural and Riot Act less so) straddle those two perspectives. In some respects the more recent records reflect a resolution of the tensions between them.
stupidmop wrote:
And going 'back' to writing more melodies and choruses is fine, they can write all the songs with choruses and hooks and melodies and have them not sound like ass if they wanted to. Sad? Breakerfall? Yield? None of the middle records are all that bizzare or undigestable to me. Hell some of the newer shit is weirder to me, all those non choruses and multiple bridges or whatever.
Well the melody/chorus stuff is more Release_Me than me, but I think a song like GSMF is pretty similar to breakerfall, but vastly superior (to these ears)
Release_Me wrote:Pearl Jam never wanted to have a small audience. They have always been a big arena rock band.
I just don't agree with that, and neither do a lot of people. That's the crux of the matter. They had decades to decide that musical integrity was more important than a giant fanbase. Binaural and Riot Act were the genius culmination of that aesthetic. No Code, and the need to run from a giant fanbase and do something else, might have been the trigger, but they sure as hell stayed on that path for a long time and grew contented with it. By the time S/T came around and they suddenly decided they wanted to be like U2 again, that was very much a surprising decision out of leftfield, and jarring for a lot of fans. They were very suddenly following the opposite trajectory that they'd started following at No Code, and it had been a long time. You can't be surprised that a lot of people weren't prepared to readjust.
I rail about this constantly but I really just don't see where current choices are undermining the musical integrity of the band. Certainly they may care less about producing new music, but that's not the same thing as not caring about the music you produce.
And Binaural and Riot Act remain, easily, the pearl jam sound I am most thankful they have moved away from. For me it is hardly the genius culmination of anything--it represented a sour artistic dead end that systematically alienated their artistic strengths for...I'm not even sure why. I will obviously concede that those records are very important and very impressive to a lot of people, and quite possibly for good reasons, but that does not mean that the current approach represents an artistic dead end. They are writing songs playing to a different set of strengths--ones that, I think, are a much better fit for the band.
If people move away from the band because they aren't writing the kind of music they want to hear that's a no brainer. You can't argue with that. But I would strongly argue with what I see as the implications in your post that the approach they've abandoned was inherently superior/more artistic/etc. Maybe that wasn't your point.
All fair points stip and you argue your feelings well. It's nice to have that other side represented. Ultimately, though, it's that not caring as much about making records as they used to that bothers me. It's down to the new "efficiency" they want to achieve now that makes them cut corners. And it's obvious. So my gripes aren't as much about style as about substance. How hard are they trying? Not very hard, by the looks of it. And part of me says they have every right to relax, record something for a few weeks every four years, whatever. But does that chime with their stated intentions? They're not going to become commercially relevant if that's all the effort they're going to.
that 4 year thing is a little misleading since they sort of announced a break for the PJ 20 year (which did produce a fair amount of stuff). Since then it's been 2 years, right? 3? And they spent 7 weeks working on the actual record over two writing sessions with a shit ton of scheduling commitments in between. How does that 7 week figure, which seems more relevant to me than the 4 years, stack up to past records (genuine question)?
Regarding the bold we are left with two possible options here.
1. Pearl Jam is just the worst band ever at setting out to do what they're trying to do
or
2. It may not be the controlling motive here.
I am more inclined to think that one of the most successful and influential bands of the last 20 years, and a likely first ballot R+R HoF induction, would be so terrible at managing this.
OK, yeah. But you know, I'm just a fan who doesn't care about the huge PJ20 campaign. Me, I still waited 4 years for an album while a bunch of advertising happened on the back of a pop album. It was much larger than it ever had to be. It was executed well, but the film largely ignored the middle period as well.
Anyway, it would be interesting to find out just how long they spent writing and recording each album, if we have that information.
the 4 year wait still sucks, mind you. I am just disputing whether or not you can read the 'not caring' into it to the level that many seem to.
It sucks, but those who point to "4 years" between albums as some kind of evidence that the band can't be bothered really are stretching the case. PJ20 was a big deal and an effort from the band. They have played shows in all of these years as well. Ed's injury also seems to have been a big delay, especially in that it led to everyone pushing forward with other projects. It seems like until that injury the intention was to have this album ready around this time last year.
Actually, you're shrinking the case. It's not just the 4 years that people are pointing to.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Release_Me wrote:Pearl Jam never wanted to have a small audience. They have always been a big arena rock band.
I just don't agree with that, and neither do a lot of people. That's the crux of the matter. They had decades to decide that musical integrity was more important than a giant fanbase. Binaural and Riot Act were the genius culmination of that aesthetic. No Code, and the need to run from a giant fanbase and do something else, might have been the trigger, but they sure as hell stayed on that path for a long time and grew contented with it. By the time S/T came around and they suddenly decided they wanted to be like U2 again, that was very much a surprising decision out of leftfield, and jarring for a lot of fans. They were very suddenly following the opposite trajectory that they'd started following at No Code, and it had been a long time. You can't be surprised that a lot of people weren't prepared to readjust.
I rail about this constantly but I really just don't see where current choices are undermining the musical integrity of the band. Certainly they may care less about producing new music, but that's not the same thing as not caring about the music you produce.
And Binaural and Riot Act remain, easily, the pearl jam sound I am most thankful they have moved away from. For me it is hardly the genius culmination of anything--it represented a sour artistic dead end that systematically alienated their artistic strengths for...I'm not even sure why. I will obviously concede that those records are very important and very impressive to a lot of people, and quite possibly for good reasons, but that does not mean that the current approach represents an artistic dead end. They are writing songs playing to a different set of strengths--ones that, I think, are a much better fit for the band.
If people move away from the band because they aren't writing the kind of music they want to hear that's a no brainer. You can't argue with that. But I would strongly argue with what I see as the implications in your post that the approach they've abandoned was inherently superior/more artistic/etc. Maybe that wasn't your point.
All fair points stip and you argue your feelings well. It's nice to have that other side represented. Ultimately, though, it's that not caring as much about making records as they used to that bothers me. It's down to the new "efficiency" they want to achieve now that makes them cut corners. And it's obvious. So my gripes aren't as much about style as about substance. How hard are they trying? Not very hard, by the looks of it. And part of me says they have every right to relax, record something for a few weeks every four years, whatever. But does that chime with their stated intentions? They're not going to become commercially relevant if that's all the effort they're going to.
that 4 year thing is a little misleading since they sort of announced a break for the PJ 20 year (which did produce a fair amount of stuff). Since then it's been 2 years, right? 3? And they spent 7 weeks working on the actual record over two writing sessions with a shit ton of scheduling commitments in between. How does that 7 week figure, which seems more relevant to me than the 4 years, stack up to past records (genuine question)?
Regarding the bold we are left with two possible options here.
1. Pearl Jam is just the worst band ever at setting out to do what they're trying to do
or
2. It may not be the controlling motive here.
I am more inclined to think that one of the most successful and influential bands of the last 20 years, and a likely first ballot R+R HoF induction, would be so terrible at managing this.
OK, yeah. But you know, I'm just a fan who doesn't care about the huge PJ20 campaign. Me, I still waited 4 years for an album while a bunch of advertising happened on the back of a pop album. It was much larger than it ever had to be. It was executed well, but the film largely ignored the middle period as well.
Anyway, it would be interesting to find out just how long they spent writing and recording each album, if we have that information.
the 4 year wait still sucks, mind you. I am just disputing whether or not you can read the 'not caring' into it to the level that many seem to.
It sucks, but those who point to "4 years" between albums as some kind of evidence that the band can't be bothered really are stretching the case. PJ20 was a big deal and an effort from the band. They have played shows in all of these years as well. Ed's injury also seems to have been a big delay, especially in that it led to everyone pushing forward with other projects. It seems like until that injury the intention was to have this album ready around this time last year.
theplatypus wrote:YOUR BRAIN MAY BE A PEARL-JAM-EXCUSE-MAKER BUT IT'S STILL FOUR FUCKING YEARS YOU CAN'T SAY IT'S NOT FOUR YEARS STUPIDMOP *aneurysm*
im doing great, and honestly part of it is this song. im pretty sure im falling in love w/ pearl jam again, and alot of it has to do w/ this song. i just cant get enough of it. i put it on this morning a soon as i woke up. i know its not really a "happy" song, but hearing pearl jam put their heart and balls into a song again really makes me happy.
its like they found their...whats the word im looking for...agency?
I really am hoping they've found some long-lasting shit hot fire yeah.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Backspacer was never meant to be record about all the things wrong in the world. It was meant to be a celebration of a band that had made it this far and lived to tell the tale. If you don't like it for what it is, that's another matter. But if you don't like because it didn't do what you wanted it to, then it's the same as me hating Ten because I wanted it to be uplifting and not the depressing album that it was. There is nothing inherently wrong with being happy, more people should try it.
In contrast, the LB songs are dealing with some of the things that are wrong with the world and doing so whilst utilising the band's strengths. That's why I like it a lot so far. Much more than the middle period where the melodies are the least memorable despite the musicianship being at a high level. Sad and Breakerfall may be two of the better melodies from that era but Sad never made it to a proper album and Breakerfall is really a weak song by PJ standards. There was too much dreariness for too little listening reward in that era (excepting Yield). If that does it for you, great. But I don't want more of that, please. There are a few hundred members of RM who would be delighted with another No Code or Riot Act. But PJ is a big band with a big fanbase. And many of us liked BS and also like LB and want to see what the rest of the album has to offer.
I would like some dark, atmospheric songs to round up the record because that's what Pearl Jam do. The darkness shouldn't be forced but with Ed, it's only natural it will find it's way in. Even BS had SOS and The End.
There's nothing wrong with a good happy album, but there are a lot of much better happy albums than Backspacer.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
harmless wrote:There's nothing wrong with a good happy album, but there are a lot of much better happy albums than Backspacer.
I think one of the things that makes backspacer so good is precisely that you wouldn't necessarily expect those songs to be written by pearl jam and that they songs don't fully commit because they still are pearl jam. there's still something there that takes itself a little seriously, even if far less so. I like that. If it wasn't there I probably wouldn't like the album nearly as much
stip wrote:Well the melody/chorus stuff is more Release_Me than me, but I think a song like GSMF is pretty similar to breakerfall, but vastly superior (to these ears)
But... Breakerfall is The Who and GSMF is Stone Temple Pilots!
cutuphalfdead wrote:so glad i don't see signatures
harmless wrote:There's nothing wrong with a good happy album, but there are a lot of much better happy albums than Backspacer.
I think one of the things that makes backspacer so good is precisely that you wouldn't necessarily expect those songs to be written by pearl jam and that they songs don't fully commit because they still are pearl jam. there's still something there that takes itself a little seriously, even if far less so. I like that. If it wasn't there I probably wouldn't like the album nearly as much
Fair point. But I guess in a way, my ultimate feeling is that I enjoy it, but I enjoy it in a PJ-fan vacuum. If I honestly compare it to other records trying to do similar things, I would rather listen to them. I still go back to individual songs on Backspacer, but ultimately I enjoy it for the novelty of PJ trying a pop album, more than I enjoy it for being a good one. Lightning Bolt, I hope, will be a more satisfying listen on every level.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
stip wrote:Well the melody/chorus stuff is more Release_Me than me, but I think a song like GSMF is pretty similar to breakerfall, but vastly superior (to these ears)
But... Breakerfall is The Who and GSMF is Stone Temple Pilots!
It's not even close, in my humble opinion. GSMF is far better.
stip wrote:Well the melody/chorus stuff is more Release_Me than me, but I think a song like GSMF is pretty similar to breakerfall, but vastly superior (to these ears)
But... Breakerfall is The Who and GSMF is Stone Temple Pilots!
It's not even close, in my humble opinion. GSMF is far better.
I strongly disagree but I was talking about what the songs sound like/remind me of (to me anyway). I don't think Breakerfall is similar to GSMF.
cutuphalfdead wrote:so glad i don't see signatures
Release_Me wrote:Pearl Jam never wanted to have a small audience. They have always been a big arena rock band.
I just don't agree with that, and neither do a lot of people. That's the crux of the matter. They had decades to decide that musical integrity was more important than a giant fanbase. Binaural and Riot Act were the genius culmination of that aesthetic. No Code, and the need to run from a giant fanbase and do something else, might have been the trigger, but they sure as hell stayed on that path for a long time and grew contented with it. By the time S/T came around and they suddenly decided they wanted to be like U2 again, that was very much a surprising decision out of leftfield, and jarring for a lot of fans. They were very suddenly following the opposite trajectory that they'd started following at No Code, and it had been a long time. You can't be surprised that a lot of people weren't prepared to readjust.
I rail about this constantly but I really just don't see where current choices are undermining the musical integrity of the band. Certainly they may care less about producing new music, but that's not the same thing as not caring about the music you produce.
And Binaural and Riot Act remain, easily, the pearl jam sound I am most thankful they have moved away from. For me it is hardly the genius culmination of anything--it represented a sour artistic dead end that systematically alienated their artistic strengths for...I'm not even sure why. I will obviously concede that those records are very important and very impressive to a lot of people, and quite possibly for good reasons, but that does not mean that the current approach represents an artistic dead end. They are writing songs playing to a different set of strengths--ones that, I think, are a much better fit for the band.
If people move away from the band because they aren't writing the kind of music they want to hear that's a no brainer. You can't argue with that. But I would strongly argue with what I see as the implications in your post that the approach they've abandoned was inherently superior/more artistic/etc. Maybe that wasn't your point.
All fair points stip and you argue your feelings well. It's nice to have that other side represented. Ultimately, though, it's that not caring as much about making records as they used to that bothers me. It's down to the new "efficiency" they want to achieve now that makes them cut corners. And it's obvious. So my gripes aren't as much about style as about substance. How hard are they trying? Not very hard, by the looks of it. And part of me says they have every right to relax, record something for a few weeks every four years, whatever. But does that chime with their stated intentions? They're not going to become commercially relevant if that's all the effort they're going to.
that 4 year thing is a little misleading since they sort of announced a break for the PJ 20 year (which did produce a fair amount of stuff). Since then it's been 2 years, right? 3? And they spent 7 weeks working on the actual record over two writing sessions with a shit ton of scheduling commitments in between. How does that 7 week figure, which seems more relevant to me than the 4 years, stack up to past records (genuine question)?
Regarding the bold we are left with two possible options here.
1. Pearl Jam is just the worst band ever at setting out to do what they're trying to do
or
2. It may not be the controlling motive here.
I am more inclined to think that one of the most successful and influential bands of the last 20 years, and a likely first ballot R+R HoF induction, would be so terrible at managing this.
OK, yeah. But you know, I'm just a fan who doesn't care about the huge PJ20 campaign. Me, I still waited 4 years for an album while a bunch of advertising happened on the back of a pop album. It was much larger than it ever had to be. It was executed well, but the film largely ignored the middle period as well.
Anyway, it would be interesting to find out just how long they spent writing and recording each album, if we have that information.
the 4 year wait still sucks, mind you. I am just disputing whether or not you can read the 'not caring' into it to the level that many seem to.
It sucks, but those who point to "4 years" between albums as some kind of evidence that the band can't be bothered really are stretching the case. PJ20 was a big deal and an effort from the band. They have played shows in all of these years as well. Ed's injury also seems to have been a big delay, especially in that it led to everyone pushing forward with other projects. It seems like until that injury the intention was to have this album ready around this time last year.
theplatypus wrote:YOUR BRAIN MAY BE A PEARL-JAM-EXCUSE-MAKER BUT IT'S STILL FOUR FUCKING YEARS YOU CAN'T SAY IT'S NOT FOUR YEARS STUPIDMOP *aneurysm*
That wasn't me! Unless theplatypus was yelling at me for some other reason.
I'd give backspacer more of a pass if it didn't seem to be the start of a trend. Yes the subject matter so far isn't as in your face popvomit, but so far LB still has a similar "sound" that I'm not Really liking. Though I guess I should refrain from a ritualistic mass burning of backspacer copies to bring back pj's mojo, until after I hear the last songs.
I had to go check because I couldn't remember the melody to gsmf, and mehhh. Much prefer breakerfall.
Release_Me wrote:Pearl Jam never wanted to have a small audience. They have always been a big arena rock band.
I just don't agree with that, and neither do a lot of people. That's the crux of the matter. They had decades to decide that musical integrity was more important than a giant fanbase. Binaural and Riot Act were the genius culmination of that aesthetic. No Code, and the need to run from a giant fanbase and do something else, might have been the trigger, but they sure as hell stayed on that path for a long time and grew contented with it. By the time S/T came around and they suddenly decided they wanted to be like U2 again, that was very much a surprising decision out of leftfield, and jarring for a lot of fans. They were very suddenly following the opposite trajectory that they'd started following at No Code, and it had been a long time. You can't be surprised that a lot of people weren't prepared to readjust.
I rail about this constantly but I really just don't see where current choices are undermining the musical integrity of the band. Certainly they may care less about producing new music, but that's not the same thing as not caring about the music you produce.
And Binaural and Riot Act remain, easily, the pearl jam sound I am most thankful they have moved away from. For me it is hardly the genius culmination of anything--it represented a sour artistic dead end that systematically alienated their artistic strengths for...I'm not even sure why. I will obviously concede that those records are very important and very impressive to a lot of people, and quite possibly for good reasons, but that does not mean that the current approach represents an artistic dead end. They are writing songs playing to a different set of strengths--ones that, I think, are a much better fit for the band.
If people move away from the band because they aren't writing the kind of music they want to hear that's a no brainer. You can't argue with that. But I would strongly argue with what I see as the implications in your post that the approach they've abandoned was inherently superior/more artistic/etc. Maybe that wasn't your point.
All fair points stip and you argue your feelings well. It's nice to have that other side represented. Ultimately, though, it's that not caring as much about making records as they used to that bothers me. It's down to the new "efficiency" they want to achieve now that makes them cut corners. And it's obvious. So my gripes aren't as much about style as about substance. How hard are they trying? Not very hard, by the looks of it. And part of me says they have every right to relax, record something for a few weeks every four years, whatever. But does that chime with their stated intentions? They're not going to become commercially relevant if that's all the effort they're going to.
that 4 year thing is a little misleading since they sort of announced a break for the PJ 20 year (which did produce a fair amount of stuff). Since then it's been 2 years, right? 3? And they spent 7 weeks working on the actual record over two writing sessions with a shit ton of scheduling commitments in between. How does that 7 week figure, which seems more relevant to me than the 4 years, stack up to past records (genuine question)?
Regarding the bold we are left with two possible options here.
1. Pearl Jam is just the worst band ever at setting out to do what they're trying to do
or
2. It may not be the controlling motive here.
I am more inclined to think that one of the most successful and influential bands of the last 20 years, and a likely first ballot R+R HoF induction, would be so terrible at managing this.
OK, yeah. But you know, I'm just a fan who doesn't care about the huge PJ20 campaign. Me, I still waited 4 years for an album while a bunch of advertising happened on the back of a pop album. It was much larger than it ever had to be. It was executed well, but the film largely ignored the middle period as well.
Anyway, it would be interesting to find out just how long they spent writing and recording each album, if we have that information.
the 4 year wait still sucks, mind you. I am just disputing whether or not you can read the 'not caring' into it to the level that many seem to.
It sucks, but those who point to "4 years" between albums as some kind of evidence that the band can't be bothered really are stretching the case. PJ20 was a big deal and an effort from the band. They have played shows in all of these years as well. Ed's injury also seems to have been a big delay, especially in that it led to everyone pushing forward with other projects. It seems like until that injury the intention was to have this album ready around this time last year.
theplatypus wrote:YOUR BRAIN MAY BE A PEARL-JAM-EXCUSE-MAKER BUT IT'S STILL FOUR FUCKING YEARS YOU CAN'T SAY IT'S NOT FOUR YEARS STUPIDMOP *aneurysm*
That wasn't me! Unless theplatypus was yelling at me for some other reason.
I'd give backspacer more of a pass if it didn't seem to be the start of a trend. Yes the subject matter so far isn't as in your face popvomit, but so far LB still has a similar "sound" that I'm not Really liking. Though I guess I should refrain from a ritualistic mass burning of backspacer copies to bring back pj's mojo, until after I hear the last songs.
I had to go check because I couldn't remember the melody to gsmf, and mehhh. Much prefer breakerfall.
that was to me, but it was for making your point, so I wanted to share.
Well, it's not just four years for this one. It was three before that and four before that. They've slowed down quite a bit, so even if stip is correct in saying this one hasn't really been four years, it's one out of three instances on their three last records.
I just am often pretty confused why it takes so long. Their songs rarely sound so far out of their zone that it must have taken a back-breaking amount of effort and time to get there.
If there's less of a priority to record now than there was, if "the live show" is a much larger priority and they only want to shit out a quick album every four or five years from now on and spend the rest of their time with their families, why don't they just tell us? There's been an increasing amount of spin from the 10C about how apparently full of fire they are, and it just hasn't been backed up by productivity for a long time. If they want to chill out, go on a hiatus or whatever, I've got a feeling we'd all forgive them, even applaud them. It's just that keeping quiet about changing circumstances in order to trot out the same marketing memes feels like deception.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
harmless wrote:If there's less of a priority to record now than there was, if "the live show" is a much larger priority and they only want to shit out a quick album every four or five years from now on and spend the rest of their time with their families, why don't they just tell us? There's been an increasing amount of spin from the 10C about how apparently full of fire they are, and it just hasn't been backed up by productivity for a long time. If they want to chill out, go on a hiatus or whatever, I've got a feeling we'd all forgive them, even applaud them. It's just that keeping quiet about changing circumstances in order to trot out the same marketing memes feels like deception.
Basically this all comes down to harmless wanting to chat with PJ.
