Red Mosquito

Heathen wrote:

harmless wrote:One 'stream' of Ed's writing that he still does well, I think, is the political / social.

I thought this writing was quite awful on s/t (like everything else, mind you). Something about being too wordy and trying too hard.

Yeah, I didn't like most of the political songs much on S/T, for the same reason, but they were story-telling songs remember (not Ed's forte). There's a difference between subject and method. Lyrically, MYM isn't necessarily any worse than, say, Grievance, Comatose, Brain of J, possibly even DTE (even though MYM has a simpler, more blues-based "woke up this mornin" feel to it). But that's because it's Ed just ranting and raving, not trying to tell a convoluted and confusing story; all of these songs are still very political. LB goes a bit more in the story-telling direction, but gets away with it (I think, we'll see when the lyrics are officially published) because Ed's using so many metaphors, so that it's not necessarily just about some girl.

I personally like Ed's storytelling and most of my favourite Pearl Jam songs have him in storytelling mode. The Ten songs I'm sure everyone remembers, but there are numerous songs from Vs & Vitalogy where Ed is telling stories and that's part of what makes the songs what they are. Even on S/T, Unemployable and Army Reserve are both underrated gems for me.

Unemployable was really good, and I like most of WWS. Army Reserve just sounded like journalistic prose set to music imo (more than WWS, which also had a bit of that). Ed has some great storytelling songs, obviously, I'm just saying that generally, the stuff he did on the songs I listed, as well as, like, Last Exit, Satan's Bed, Whipping, even Bushleaguer, is more interesting to me.

I can understand that. You may prefer the songs to be more abstract or the subject to not be spelled out for you. I like those too but most of my favourites from their catalogue tend to be the more direct ones or the ones where there is a story.

Release_Me wrote:They were alienating me somewhat with their 'artistic choices' from No Code-Riot Act. I stuck by them through these albums only because it was Pearl Jam. S/T and onwards are albums I can actually like rather than just appreciate. Goes to show their career path is different depending on how you perceive the middle period. Not everyone will see it the same way. I definitely don't see the latter period as an attempt to gain back the fans they had weeded out. I just see it as them making more direct and to me, better music. The latter albums really have little in common with what brought them their earlier successes.

largely my view as well.


I was just speaking with a friend of mine who was really into PJ 91-94. He fell off in the no code-binaural era. We used to argue all the time about whether or not pearl jam was still any good. he moved onto artists like tom waits, bright eyes, flaming lips, etc. But the other day he e-mailed me saying he just watched singles for the first time in like a decade. He had convinced himself in the intervening years that pearl jam wasn't even that good, and he just liked them as a teenager. But after watching singles he went back and listened to those first few albums and remembered that he got angry with pearl jam precisely because they used to be that good and then stopped. That was me as well. S/T and Backspacer are part of a second honeymoon with me for the band, but this work is still below what I see as their prime, and scratches a different itch, but at least has them putting out work that is starting to once again play to their strengths, as opposed to the No Code--Riot Act run, which had songs that occasionally succeeded seemingly in spite of the band.

Different strokes, etc.

stip wrote:

Release_Me wrote:They were alienating me somewhat with their 'artistic choices' from No Code-Riot Act. I stuck by them through these albums only because it was Pearl Jam. S/T and onwards are albums I can actually like rather than just appreciate. Goes to show their career path is different depending on how you perceive the middle period. Not everyone will see it the same way. I definitely don't see the latter period as an attempt to gain back the fans they had weeded out. I just see it as them making more direct and to me, better music. The latter albums really have little in common with what brought them their earlier successes.

largely my view as well.


I was just speaking with a friend of mine who was really into PJ 91-94. He fell off in the no code-binaural era. We used to argue all the time about whether or not pearl jam was still any good. he moved onto artists like tom waits, bright eyes, flaming lips, etc. But the other day he e-mailed me saying he just watched singles for the first time in like a decade. He had convinced himself in the intervening years that pearl jam wasn't even that good, and he just liked them as a teenager. But after watching singles he went back and listened to those first few albums and remembered that he got angry with pearl jam precisely because they used to be that good and then stopped. That was me as well. S/T and Backspacer are part of a second honeymoon with me for the band, but this work is still below what I see as their prime, and scratches a different itch, but at least has them putting out work that is starting to once again play to their strengths, as opposed to the No Code--Riot Act run, which had songs that occasionally succeeded seemingly in spite of the band.

Different strokes, etc.

Very similar here Stip. Although I always bought the albums and gave them time, I wasn't as interested as the 92-96 years. No Code frustrated the hell out of me as it was so good at times yet so mediocre at others. It was only after ST (or more precisely being well into my 30's and living overseas) that I really dived in again. There hasn't been an album of theirs that I haven't mostly liked but they have all been missing in some regard (post Vitalogy).

I'm enjoying my time with PJ again but it is definitely from different perspective. And it makes me feel young too.

stip wrote:

Release_Me wrote:They were alienating me somewhat with their 'artistic choices' from No Code-Riot Act. I stuck by them through these albums only because it was Pearl Jam. S/T and onwards are albums I can actually like rather than just appreciate. Goes to show their career path is different depending on how you perceive the middle period. Not everyone will see it the same way. I definitely don't see the latter period as an attempt to gain back the fans they had weeded out. I just see it as them making more direct and to me, better music. The latter albums really have little in common with what brought them their earlier successes.

largely my view as well.


I was just speaking with a friend of mine who was really into PJ 91-94. He fell off in the no code-binaural era. We used to argue all the time about whether or not pearl jam was still any good. he moved onto artists like tom waits, bright eyes, flaming lips, etc. But the other day he e-mailed me saying he just watched singles for the first time in like a decade. He had convinced himself in the intervening years that pearl jam wasn't even that good, and he just liked them as a teenager. But after watching singles he went back and listened to those first few albums and remembered that he got angry with pearl jam precisely because they used to be that good and then stopped. That was me as well. S/T and Backspacer are part of a second honeymoon with me for the band, but this work is still below what I see as their prime, and scratches a different itch, but at least has them putting out work that is starting to once again play to their strengths, as opposed to the No Code--Riot Act run, which had songs that occasionally succeeded seemingly in spite of the band.

Different strokes, etc.

Something in the water don't not compute. I can understand finding no code to riot act off putting, but I can't understand seeing s/t and backspacer as an improvement, or them playing to thier strengths. Unless you think thier stregths are generic forgettable rock. Backspacer i'll give you, is them trying to do something different, but on the whole I consider s/t and backspacer a lot less creative/interesting.

Not bitchin at you, like you said, different strokes etc. But yeah blows my mind.

Release_Me wrote:I can understand that. You may prefer the songs to be more abstract or the subject to not be spelled out for you. I like those too but most of my favourites from their catalogue tend to be the more direct ones or the ones where there is a story.

Cool.

I guess to counter my theory there are songs which were attempts at that fragmented style which didn't work so well: Comatose I've always struggled with, as for all the interpretations I've read, it just seems too vague to reach any kind of consensus on what it's about. I just don't get it. I've recently started to see it a bit more clearly and there are some lines I like quite a lot which provide a real clue, but I still think it's unfocussed.

stupidmop wrote:

stip wrote:

Release_Me wrote:They were alienating me somewhat with their 'artistic choices' from No Code-Riot Act. I stuck by them through these albums only because it was Pearl Jam. S/T and onwards are albums I can actually like rather than just appreciate. Goes to show their career path is different depending on how you perceive the middle period. Not everyone will see it the same way. I definitely don't see the latter period as an attempt to gain back the fans they had weeded out. I just see it as them making more direct and to me, better music. The latter albums really have little in common with what brought them their earlier successes.

largely my view as well.


I was just speaking with a friend of mine who was really into PJ 91-94. He fell off in the no code-binaural era. We used to argue all the time about whether or not pearl jam was still any good. he moved onto artists like tom waits, bright eyes, flaming lips, etc. But the other day he e-mailed me saying he just watched singles for the first time in like a decade. He had convinced himself in the intervening years that pearl jam wasn't even that good, and he just liked them as a teenager. But after watching singles he went back and listened to those first few albums and remembered that he got angry with pearl jam precisely because they used to be that good and then stopped. That was me as well. S/T and Backspacer are part of a second honeymoon with me for the band, but this work is still below what I see as their prime, and scratches a different itch, but at least has them putting out work that is starting to once again play to their strengths, as opposed to the No Code--Riot Act run, which had songs that occasionally succeeded seemingly in spite of the band.

Different strokes, etc.

Something in the water don't not compute. I can understand finding no code to riot act off putting, but I can't understand seeing s/t and backspacer as an improvement, or them playing to thier strengths. Unless you think thier stregths are generic forgettable rock. Backspacer i'll give you, is them trying to do something different, but on the whole I consider s/t and backspacer a lot less creative/interesting.

Not bitchin at you, like you said, different strokes etc. But yeah blows my mind.

To be fair on Stip, a lot of people feel Ten and Vs. are exactly that...

harmless wrote:

stupidmop wrote:

stip wrote:

Release_Me wrote:They were alienating me somewhat with their 'artistic choices' from No Code-Riot Act. I stuck by them through these albums only because it was Pearl Jam. S/T and onwards are albums I can actually like rather than just appreciate. Goes to show their career path is different depending on how you perceive the middle period. Not everyone will see it the same way. I definitely don't see the latter period as an attempt to gain back the fans they had weeded out. I just see it as them making more direct and to me, better music. The latter albums really have little in common with what brought them their earlier successes.

largely my view as well.


I was just speaking with a friend of mine who was really into PJ 91-94. He fell off in the no code-binaural era. We used to argue all the time about whether or not pearl jam was still any good. he moved onto artists like tom waits, bright eyes, flaming lips, etc. But the other day he e-mailed me saying he just watched singles for the first time in like a decade. He had convinced himself in the intervening years that pearl jam wasn't even that good, and he just liked them as a teenager. But after watching singles he went back and listened to those first few albums and remembered that he got angry with pearl jam precisely because they used to be that good and then stopped. That was me as well. S/T and Backspacer are part of a second honeymoon with me for the band, but this work is still below what I see as their prime, and scratches a different itch, but at least has them putting out work that is starting to once again play to their strengths, as opposed to the No Code--Riot Act run, which had songs that occasionally succeeded seemingly in spite of the band.

Different strokes, etc.

Something in the water don't not compute. I can understand finding no code to riot act off putting, but I can't understand seeing s/t and backspacer as an improvement, or them playing to thier strengths. Unless you think thier stregths are generic forgettable rock. Backspacer i'll give you, is them trying to do something different, but on the whole I consider s/t and backspacer a lot less creative/interesting.

Not bitchin at you, like you said, different strokes etc. But yeah blows my mind.

To be fair on Stip, a lot of people feel Ten and Vs. are exactly that...

To be fair, a lot of people feel their entire catalogue is exactly that... And around here a lot of people find Riot Act to be that.

verb_to_trust wrote:
I'm increasingly worried that what we have here is 5 individuals posturing in order to keep the machine rolling. They get together every 4 years or so to force out an album and get together and sleepwalk through unrehearsed, sped up versions of their back catalog on tour (but only in easy and convenient cities)

Or maybe i'm just trolling. We'll find out in a few months.

Are you saying they're bound out of obligation, cause that's all they got

A stone/ ed interview would be cool right about now. To see what kinda space thier in/ fuel some more speculation.

Sometimes I think it will be a lot easier if we stop pretending that PJ are anything other than a straight up rock band (and a damn good one at that). No Code-Riot Act they were trying to be something else. A lot of people on RM seemed to like that. Fair enough. Most though, tend to think they are at their best when playing to their strengths, i.e. being a straight up rock n roll band.

stupidmop wrote:

stip wrote:

Release_Me wrote:They were alienating me somewhat with their 'artistic choices' from No Code-Riot Act. I stuck by them through these albums only because it was Pearl Jam. S/T and onwards are albums I can actually like rather than just appreciate. Goes to show their career path is different depending on how you perceive the middle period. Not everyone will see it the same way. I definitely don't see the latter period as an attempt to gain back the fans they had weeded out. I just see it as them making more direct and to me, better music. The latter albums really have little in common with what brought them their earlier successes.

largely my view as well.


I was just speaking with a friend of mine who was really into PJ 91-94. He fell off in the no code-binaural era. We used to argue all the time about whether or not pearl jam was still any good. he moved onto artists like tom waits, bright eyes, flaming lips, etc. But the other day he e-mailed me saying he just watched singles for the first time in like a decade. He had convinced himself in the intervening years that pearl jam wasn't even that good, and he just liked them as a teenager. But after watching singles he went back and listened to those first few albums and remembered that he got angry with pearl jam precisely because they used to be that good and then stopped. That was me as well. S/T and Backspacer are part of a second honeymoon with me for the band, but this work is still below what I see as their prime, and scratches a different itch, but at least has them putting out work that is starting to once again play to their strengths, as opposed to the No Code--Riot Act run, which had songs that occasionally succeeded seemingly in spite of the band.

Different strokes, etc.

Something in the water don't not compute. I can understand finding no code to riot act off putting, but I can't understand seeing s/t and backspacer as an improvement, or them playing to thier strengths. Unless you think thier stregths are generic forgettable rock. Backspacer i'll give you, is them trying to do something different, but on the whole I consider s/t and backspacer a lot less creative/interesting.

Not bitchin at you, like you said, different strokes etc. But yeah blows my mind.

I've said more about this at length elsewhere, but for me the easiest way to make sense of this is that internal (inward)/external (outward) focus to the music. It's not that some of the albums are reflective and others aren't. It's more a sense of whether or not you can imagine Eddie standing right there next to you as a fellow traveler, or whether you are privy to a dialogue inside someone's head. Some artists do internal really super well. I don't think Pearl Jam does and so the inward looking albums (No Code--Riot Act) are far less interesting to me. It is the records that are more external, confrontational, and grounded in a sense of solidarity that speak to me. Yield is the most outwardly focused of the mid period records, and not surprisingly is my favorite of the bunch

stip wrote:

stupidmop wrote:

stip wrote:

Release_Me wrote:They were alienating me somewhat with their 'artistic choices' from No Code-Riot Act. I stuck by them through these albums only because it was Pearl Jam. S/T and onwards are albums I can actually like rather than just appreciate. Goes to show their career path is different depending on how you perceive the middle period. Not everyone will see it the same way. I definitely don't see the latter period as an attempt to gain back the fans they had weeded out. I just see it as them making more direct and to me, better music. The latter albums really have little in common with what brought them their earlier successes.

largely my view as well.


I was just speaking with a friend of mine who was really into PJ 91-94. He fell off in the no code-binaural era. We used to argue all the time about whether or not pearl jam was still any good. he moved onto artists like tom waits, bright eyes, flaming lips, etc. But the other day he e-mailed me saying he just watched singles for the first time in like a decade. He had convinced himself in the intervening years that pearl jam wasn't even that good, and he just liked them as a teenager. But after watching singles he went back and listened to those first few albums and remembered that he got angry with pearl jam precisely because they used to be that good and then stopped. That was me as well. S/T and Backspacer are part of a second honeymoon with me for the band, but this work is still below what I see as their prime, and scratches a different itch, but at least has them putting out work that is starting to once again play to their strengths, as opposed to the No Code--Riot Act run, which had songs that occasionally succeeded seemingly in spite of the band.

Different strokes, etc.

Something in the water don't not compute. I can understand finding no code to riot act off putting, but I can't understand seeing s/t and backspacer as an improvement, or them playing to thier strengths. Unless you think thier stregths are generic forgettable rock. Backspacer i'll give you, is them trying to do something different, but on the whole I consider s/t and backspacer a lot less creative/interesting.

Not bitchin at you, like you said, different strokes etc. But yeah blows my mind.

I've said more about this at length elsewhere, but for me the easiest way to make sense of this is that internal (inward)/external (outward) focus to the music. It's not that some of the albums are reflective and others aren't. It's more a sense of whether or not you can imagine Eddie standing right there next to you as a fellow traveler, or whether you are privy to a dialogue inside someone's head. Some artists do internal really super well. I don't think Pearl Jam does and so the inward looking albums (No Code--Riot Act) are far less interesting to me. It is the records that are more external, confrontational, and grounded in a sense of solidarity that speak to me. Yield is the most outwardly focused of the mid period records, and not surprisingly is my favorite of the bunch

Perfectly put.

LetMeSleep wrote:

harmless wrote:

stupidmop wrote:
Something in the water don't not compute. I can understand finding no code to riot act off putting, but I can't understand seeing s/t and backspacer as an improvement, or them playing to thier strengths. Unless you think thier stregths are generic forgettable rock. Backspacer i'll give you, is them trying to do something different, but on the whole I consider s/t and backspacer a lot less creative/interesting.

Not bitchin at you, like you said, different strokes etc. But yeah blows my mind.

To be fair on Stip, a lot of people feel Ten and Vs. are exactly that...

To be fair, a lot of people feel their entire catalogue is exactly that... And around here a lot of people find Riot Act to be that.

I guess but do you? Hell I'm not saying the earlier stuff can't be considered generic rock, just that the newer stuff seems more generic. Stip said he likes s/t and backspacer over no code to riot act, but doesn't see them on par with the earlier stuff which is fair enough, I guess I'm the opposite in that I'd rather they carried on trying to do more interesting stuff rather than more straight up rock, with whatever it is that made the earlier stuff great, missing.

I keep saying 'earlier stuff ' but It doesn't really need to be separated I think.

And I missed the bit about riot act, I don't consider it generic rock but I definitely consider it mostly 'meh' as a whole lol.

stupidmop wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:

harmless wrote:

stupidmop wrote:
Something in the water don't not compute. I can understand finding no code to riot act off putting, but I can't understand seeing s/t and backspacer as an improvement, or them playing to thier strengths. Unless you think thier stregths are generic forgettable rock. Backspacer i'll give you, is them trying to do something different, but on the whole I consider s/t and backspacer a lot less creative/interesting.

Not bitchin at you, like you said, different strokes etc. But yeah blows my mind.

To be fair on Stip, a lot of people feel Ten and Vs. are exactly that...

To be fair, a lot of people feel their entire catalogue is exactly that... And around here a lot of people find Riot Act to be that.

I guess but do you? Hell I'm not saying the earlier stuff can't be considered generic rock, just that the newer stuff seems more generic. Stip said he likes s/t and backspacer over no code to riot act, but doesn't see them on par with the earlier stuff which is fair enough, I guess I'm the opposite in that I'd rather they carried on trying to do more interesting stuff rather than more straight up rock, with whatever it is that made the earlier stuff great, missing.

In answer I find Backspacer to be in the generic Pearl Jam mould. It's not a stretch to imagine the band that played Dissident to be playing ATW or UK. That No Way, Sleight Of Hand or even Marker In The Sand happened along the way is frustrating because they have dipped their toes in other creative pools but seem to be more comfortable with their 'template'.

That's not to say that I don't enjoy Backspacer, I do. It's a good album and not their worst album. But I do want for more.

stupidmop wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:

harmless wrote:

stupidmop wrote:
Something in the water don't not compute. I can understand finding no code to riot act off putting, but I can't understand seeing s/t and backspacer as an improvement, or them playing to thier strengths. Unless you think thier stregths are generic forgettable rock. Backspacer i'll give you, is them trying to do something different, but on the whole I consider s/t and backspacer a lot less creative/interesting.

Not bitchin at you, like you said, different strokes etc. But yeah blows my mind.

To be fair on Stip, a lot of people feel Ten and Vs. are exactly that...

To be fair, a lot of people feel their entire catalogue is exactly that... And around here a lot of people find Riot Act to be that.

I guess but do you? Hell I'm not saying the earlier stuff can't be considered generic rock, just that the newer stuff seems more generic. Stip said he likes s/t and backspacer over no code to riot act, but doesn't see them on par with the earlier stuff which is fair enough, I guess I'm the opposite in that I'd rather they carried on trying to do more interesting stuff rather than more straight up rock, with whatever it is that made the earlier stuff great, missing.

It would appear that what Stip is 'looking for' in PJ is probably the opposite of what I, (and others) are looking for, or think they're particularly good at. But I can see where Stip is coming from, and I appreciate those 'external albums' quite a bit. And it's probably testament to PJ as a band that they've been able to satisfy both types of fan at different times. It's difficult to argue they haven't been generous. At this point, we're just finding out what kind of band they might want to be at this point themselves, and we can't argue with that.

I totally related to the point someone made (I forget who) that they've somehow moved away from the Neil Young 'serious artist' obscurity to find themselves in this 'pop music' place and (somehow) in the pantheon of great American rock bands. That seems so weird to me, if only because while they were doing what I saw as their best music, with Neil Young et al's utmost support and respect, they were just not quite reaching that 'all-American rock band' pantheon status. So how have they seemingly done it in such a short time, and on the back of albums like S/T and Backspacer? To be honest I have no clue. Is it simply a case of getting as many people on board as possible? And if so, have PJ done that in their later years? Or are they still in the same place, and it's all just spin by the papers who always supported PJ anyway?

I might be wrong, and we'll never really know cause it didn't happen. But I they would have reached the same status regardless of the content of the last two albums. Considering they get the most attention for thier fanbase and touring etc. As long as the albums didn't do anything to affect that, and they put themselves out in the public eye the same amount they did with S/t and backspacer, the results would have been the same. Though thinking about it just breathe and into the wild might have also helped. It kinda helped ed shake the miserable drunken asshole image.

LetMeSleep wrote: In answer I find Backspacer to be in the generic Pearl Jam mould. It's not a stretch to imagine the band that played Dissident to be playing ATW or UK. That No Way, Sleight Of Hand or even Marker In The Sand happened along the way is frustrating because they have dipped their toes in other creative pools but seem to be more comfortable with their 'template'.

That's not to say that I don't enjoy Backspacer, I do. It's a good album and not their worst album. But I do want for more.

Lol they're using thier most generic song as/second worst song on vs a jumping off point.

stupidmop wrote:Lol they're using thier most generic song as/second worst song on vs a jumping off point.

So true.

I know it's a clichéd thing to say, but what if they had used 'Alive' as the model? Would we have long jams at the end of everything, and would RM be happier? That would be a surprising and ironic result, considering how everyone bitches about not wanting to return to the sound of Ten.