Feminism

[Green Habit]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/02/03/thanks_contraception_the_u_s_abortion_rate_hits_an_all_time_low_mostly_because.html

kind of sucks that this is the only thread I felt the above article should go into...

I'd have no problem with threads of their own if you felt it was appropriate.

[malice]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... cause.html

kind of sucks that this is the only thread I felt the above article should go into...

I'd have no problem with threads of their own if you felt it was appropriate.

thanks, nick - mainly I commented on that because this kind of thing is thought of (still!) as a feminist issue - it's not though.

I watched this the other night on PBS: http://video.pbs.org/video/2331430130/

MAKERS: WOMEN WHO MAKE AMERICA

and it included some great footage from the quintessential icons of the feminist movement of the 70s - including Gloria Steinem making her famous statement about how if men got pregnant, abortion would be considered a sacrament...
yet, here we are - a whopping 40 years later, and the attack on women for wanting access to a safe and legal ending of an unwanted pregnancy is not only still present, but is probably just as big an issue now as then. maybe worse now because I don't see much opposition to it - maybe there's opposition but I'm not aware of it... complacency seems like a terrible attitude though.

feels like we moved backwards in the last 10 years or so - I don't remember it being this bad for women before but the conservative faction of the country has gone gangbusters in rolling back legal access to abortions over the last few years... so it becomes a women's issue again instead of a right to be allowed to decide for yourself when and if to have a family...

anyway - I suppose I could have started a thread about it, but I don't know what purpose it serves to do so....

[surfndestroy]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/20 ... cause.html

kind of sucks that this is the only thread I felt the above article should go into...

I'd have no problem with threads of their own if you felt it was appropriate.

I thought there was a thread on female health issues.

http://forums.theskyiscrape.com/viewtop ... f=5&t=1515

[Green Habit]

Looking at it from a generational viewpoint, I'm pretty optimistic about equality of the sexes in the future. Silent Generation leaders like the aforementioned Steinem helped kick off second wave feminism amongst the Boomers when they were coming of age, and now they've taught those values to their largely Millennial children, who are not only taking them to heart but putting them into action. I think things will look a lot different about 20 years from now.

[surfndestroy]

Looking at it from a generational viewpoint, I'm pretty optimistic about equality of the sexes in the future. Silent Generation leaders like the aforementioned Steinem helped kick off second wave feminism amongst the Boomers when they were coming of age, and now they've taught those values to their largely Millennial children, who are not only taking them to heart but putting them into action. I think things will look a lot different about 20 years from now.

There has to be some swing back to have concern for boys and men. The under representation of men in post secondary institutions should be troubling for all. Same for how high schools are not meeting mens educational needs based upon their test scores.

[Green Habit]

Looking at it from a generational viewpoint, I'm pretty optimistic about equality of the sexes in the future. Silent Generation leaders like the aforementioned Steinem helped kick off second wave feminism amongst the Boomers when they were coming of age, and now they've taught those values to their largely Millennial children, who are not only taking them to heart but putting them into action. I think things will look a lot different about 20 years from now.

There has to be some swing back to have concern for boys and men. The under representation of men in post secondary institutions should be troubling for all. Same for how high schools are not meeting mens educational needs based upon their test scores.

I think you're right, and I think the way that it will swing back is when boys are taught to appreciate education more than they are in some sectors. A lot of girls and young women have figured this out as a way to catch up in the curve, whereas I think there's still a perception among some that young men can get by without higher education.

Of course, I temper this statement with my usual disclaimer that higher education is not necessarily a key to a better life, and for some people could be detrimental.

[surfndestroy]

Looking at it from a generational viewpoint, I'm pretty optimistic about equality of the sexes in the future. Silent Generation leaders like the aforementioned Steinem helped kick off second wave feminism amongst the Boomers when they were coming of age, and now they've taught those values to their largely Millennial children, who are not only taking them to heart but putting them into action. I think things will look a lot different about 20 years from now.

There has to be some swing back to have concern for boys and men. The under representation of men in post secondary institutions should be troubling for all. Same for how high schools are not meeting mens educational needs based upon their test scores.

I think you're right, and I think the way that it will swing back is when boys are taught to appreciate education more than they are in some sectors. A lot of girls and young women have figured this out as a way to catch up in the curve, whereas I think there's still a perception among some that young men can get by without higher education.

Of course, I temper this statement with my usual disclaimer that higher education is not necessarily a key to a better life, and for some people could be detrimental.

I think it's going to require the same type of culture change in schools but more subtle than was required to make schools a better place for females. I think saying boys need to taught to appreciate education is placing too much responsibility on disenfranchised and not near enough on the institution to make schools a place where boys are accepted and are set up in a way where they can succeed.

[Green Habit]

Looking at it from a generational viewpoint, I'm pretty optimistic about equality of the sexes in the future. Silent Generation leaders like the aforementioned Steinem helped kick off second wave feminism amongst the Boomers when they were coming of age, and now they've taught those values to their largely Millennial children, who are not only taking them to heart but putting them into action. I think things will look a lot different about 20 years from now.

There has to be some swing back to have concern for boys and men. The under representation of men in post secondary institutions should be troubling for all. Same for how high schools are not meeting mens educational needs based upon their test scores.

I think you're right, and I think the way that it will swing back is when boys are taught to appreciate education more than they are in some sectors. A lot of girls and young women have figured this out as a way to catch up in the curve, whereas I think there's still a perception among some that young men can get by without higher education.

Of course, I temper this statement with my usual disclaimer that higher education is not necessarily a key to a better life, and for some people could be detrimental.

I think it's going to require the same type of culture change in schools but more subtle than was required to make schools a better place for females. I think saying boys need to taught to appreciate education is placing too much responsibility on disenfranchised and not near enough on the institution to make schools a place where boys are accepted and are set up in a way where they can succeed.

How do you feel that institutions are failing the boys?

[surfndestroy]

Looking at it from a generational viewpoint, I'm pretty optimistic about equality of the sexes in the future. Silent Generation leaders like the aforementioned Steinem helped kick off second wave feminism amongst the Boomers when they were coming of age, and now they've taught those values to their largely Millennial children, who are not only taking them to heart but putting them into action. I think things will look a lot different about 20 years from now.

There has to be some swing back to have concern for boys and men. The under representation of men in post secondary institutions should be troubling for all. Same for how high schools are not meeting mens educational needs based upon their test scores.

I think you're right, and I think the way that it will swing back is when boys are taught to appreciate education more than they are in some sectors. A lot of girls and young women have figured this out as a way to catch up in the curve, whereas I think there's still a perception among some that young men can get by without higher education.

Of course, I temper this statement with my usual disclaimer that higher education is not necessarily a key to a better life, and for some people could be detrimental.

I think it's going to require the same type of culture change in schools but more subtle than was required to make schools a better place for females. I think saying boys need to taught to appreciate education is placing too much responsibility on disenfranchised and not near enough on the institution to make schools a place where boys are accepted and are set up in a way where they can succeed.

How do you feel that institutions are failing the boys?

You mean beyond the outcomes? From an institutional point of view I see the cutting of things like gym class, recesses, the ways you're allowed to play at recess, the focus on team projects over individual projects. The lack of male teachers and male role models in schools is very troubling. Why are schools such male unfriendly places that they cannot attract and keep male teachers? I think answering that question will go a long way towards answering answering your question.

[Norah]

I think answering that question will go a long way towards answering answering your question.

So what you're saying is you don't know.

[surfndestroy]

I think answering that question will go a long way towards answering answering your question.

So what you're saying is you don't know.

I thought that was a given.

[Green Habit]

You mean beyond the outcomes? From an institutional point of view I see the cutting of things like gym class, recesses, the ways you're allowed to play at recess, the focus on team projects over individual projects. The lack of male teachers and male role models in schools is very troubling. Why are schools such male unfriendly places that they cannot attract and keep male teachers? I think answering that question will go a long way towards answering answering your question.

I think all of the things mentioned in your first sentence impact all students regardless of sex. As for the rest, I think your wording is interesting. Are schools "male unfriendly places", or could they instead be places where some traditionally masculine practices aren't the best fit?

That thought is related to what I think is really holding boys back as a whole (not just education) as the sexes equal out. Equality of the sexes cuts both ways. Women need to take on more traditionally masculine tasks--something they are doing well in addressing even though there are still many hurdles to cross. However, it also means that men need to take on more traditionally feminine tasks, and I think that society hasn't even come close to adequately addressing this--sadly, because I think it still freaks out many people.

Here's an article showing one example of that manifestation:

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/08/america ... e_friends/

During these years, young men are learning what it means to be a “real man.” The #1 rule: avoid everything feminine. Notice that a surprising number of insults that we fling at men are actually synonyms for or references to femininity. Calling male athletes “girls,” “women” and “ladies” is a central part of motivation in sports. Consider also slurs like “bitch” and “pussy,” which obviously reference women, but also “fag” (which on the face of it is about sexual orientation, but can also be a derogatory term for men who act feminine) and “cocksucker” (literally a term for people who sexually service men). This, by the way, is where the ubiquitous slur “you suck” comes from; it’s an insult that means you give men blow jobs.

So men are pressed — from the time they’re very young — to disassociate from everything feminine. This imperative is incredibly limiting for them. Paradoxically, it makes men feel good because of a social agreement that masculine things are better than feminine things, but it’s not the same thing as freedom. It’s restrictive and dehumanizing. It’s oppression all dressed up as awesomeness. And it is part of why men have a hard time being friends.

***

To be close friends, men need to be willing to confess their insecurities, be kind to others, have empathy and sometimes sacrifice their own self-interest. “Real men,” though, are not supposed to do these things. They are supposed to be self-interested, competitive, non-emotional, strong (with no insecurities at all), and able to deal with their emotional problems without help. Being a good friend, then, as well as needing a good friend, is the equivalent of being girly.

[surfndestroy]

You mean beyond the outcomes? From an institutional point of view I see the cutting of things like gym class, recesses, the ways you're allowed to play at recess, the focus on team projects over individual projects. The lack of male teachers and male role models in schools is very troubling. Why are schools such male unfriendly places that they cannot attract and keep male teachers? I think answering that question will go a long way towards answering answering your question.

I think all of the things mentioned in your first sentence impact all students regardless of sex. As for the rest, I think your wording is interesting. Are schools "male unfriendly places", or could they instead be places where some traditionally masculine practices aren't the best fit?

That thought is related to what I think is really holding boys back as a whole (not just education) as the sexes equal out. Equality of the sexes cuts both ways. Women need to take on more traditionally masculine tasks--something they are doing well in addressing even though there are still many hurdles to cross. However, it also means that men need to take on more traditionally feminine tasks, and I think that society hasn't even come close to adequately addressing this--sadly, because I think it still freaks out many people.

Here's an article showing one example of that manifestation:

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/08/america ... e_friends/

During these years, young men are learning what it means to be a “real man.” The #1 rule: avoid everything feminine. Notice that a surprising number of insults that we fling at men are actually synonyms for or references to femininity. Calling male athletes “girls,” “women” and “ladies” is a central part of motivation in sports. Consider also slurs like “bitch” and “pussy,” which obviously reference women, but also “fag” (which on the face of it is about sexual orientation, but can also be a derogatory term for men who act feminine) and “cocksucker” (literally a term for people who sexually service men). This, by the way, is where the ubiquitous slur “you suck” comes from; it’s an insult that means you give men blow jobs.

So men are pressed — from the time they’re very young — to disassociate from everything feminine. This imperative is incredibly limiting for them. Paradoxically, it makes men feel good because of a social agreement that masculine things are better than feminine things, but it’s not the same thing as freedom. It’s restrictive and dehumanizing. It’s oppression all dressed up as awesomeness. And it is part of why men have a hard time being friends.

***

To be close friends, men need to be willing to confess their insecurities, be kind to others, have empathy and sometimes sacrifice their own self-interest. “Real men,” though, are not supposed to do these things. They are supposed to be self-interested, competitive, non-emotional, strong (with no insecurities at all), and able to deal with their emotional problems without help. Being a good friend, then, as well as needing a good friend, is the equivalent of being girly.

Going to Salon for an article on men is probably not your best source. What the article is saying is that men must not only take on what were previously female tasks (I'm all for this) but they must also do them as a female would. I call bullshit on that. As long as the task is being done, let men figure out the best way to do it. Telling them to do it the female way is creating a male unfriendly environment. Just as it was a female unfriendly environment in many sciences and technology courses when women were expected to do things the male way.

[Green Habit]

Going to Salon for an article on men is probably not your best source. What the article is saying is that men must not only take on what were previously female tasks (I'm all for this) but they must also do them as a female would. I call bullshit on that. As long as the task is being done, let men figure out the best way to do it. Telling them to do it the female way is creating a male unfriendly environment. Just as it was a female unfriendly environment in many sciences and technology courses when women were expected to do things the male way.

I didn't get that out of the article, but I guess I can agree with you insofar as "the female way" should just be "a way", that may or not be the most appropriate depending on the circumstances.

And I'll pull articles from any source if I find it germane enough to the discussion at hand.

[broken iris]

Since this is becoming an a reasonable discussion, I'm gonna have to derail it. Hang on...

[harmless]

Going to Salon for an article on men is probably not your best source. What the article is saying is that men must not only take on what were previously female tasks (I'm all for this) but they must also do them as a female would. I call bullshit on that. As long as the task is being done, let men figure out the best way to do it. Telling them to do it the female way is creating a male unfriendly environment. Just as it was a female unfriendly environment in many sciences and technology courses when women were expected to do things the male way.

I didn't get that out of the article, but I guess I can agree with you insofar as "the female way" should just be "a way", that may or not be the most appropriate depending on the circumstances.

And I'll pull articles from any source if I find it germane enough to the discussion at hand.

You can't un-gender "ways". If it's not the female way, it will be the male way, as it has been all through the centuries.

[malice]

what's a female way of doing things?

[Self]

The wrong way.

[malice]

The wrong way.

where have you been?

[surfndestroy]

what's a female way of doing things?

I thought the last part of the articel Green Habit quoted starts to touch on it. Men have been doing fine having friends for centuries, on the whole they do friends differently than women. Neither is right nor wrong but I think it is highly sexist to tell men they are doing it wrong because they are not doing it in a more feminine way. The take the article has on men is just flat out wrong. I also think it paints a pretty caricatured picture of women.

"To be close friends, men need to be willing to confess their insecurities, be kind to others, have empathy and sometimes sacrifice their own self-interest. “Real men,” though, are not supposed to do these things. They are supposed to be self-interested, competitive, non-emotional, strong (with no insecurities at all), and able to deal with their emotional problems without help. Being a good friend, then, as well as needing a good friend, is the equivalent of being girly."