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Re: Infallible
Posted: Wed October 16, 2013 8:33 pm
by IlluminEddie
Release_Me wrote: You don't get points for attempting it otherwise I've sung LROM and Say Hello To Heaven just as good as the originals. Until my wife told me I sucked at singing and then I realised it only sounded good in my head.
You seem good at analyzing vocals. Why is it you "suck" (according to your wife) at singing? It may be you don't suck - so no offense intended. I just laughed to myself when you wrote that part.
Just always curious how (or maybe more importantly why) someone devotes enough time to become an impressive critic of an art when they, themselves aren't very good at it. I use to play guitar in a band, and I feel like I've witnessed this through random run ins with outspoken vocalists before - some of these guys want to tell people they know this or that (a ton of vocal theory, notes, etc.), but when it comes down to singing they actually kinda suck.
On the flipside, I wonder if Ed knows any of the stuff you know about (vocal notes and whatnot), or if he just sings and it is what it is. It's obvious, at least to me, that it's his tone that carries him. That's not something you can really "learn".
Re: Infallible
Posted: Wed October 16, 2013 9:30 pm
by Thejambi
IlluminEddie wrote:Release_Me wrote: You don't get points for attempting it otherwise I've sung LROM and Say Hello To Heaven just as good as the originals. Until my wife told me I sucked at singing and then I realised it only sounded good in my head.
You seem good at analyzing vocals. Why is it you "suck" (according to your wife) at singing? It may be you don't suck - so no offense intended. I just laughed to myself when you wrote that part.
Just always curious how (or maybe more importantly why) someone devotes enough time to become an impressive critic of an art when they, themselves aren't very good at it. I use to play guitar in a band, and I feel like I've witnessed this through random run ins with outspoken vocalists before - some of these guys want to tell people they know this or that (a ton of vocal theory, notes, etc.), but when it comes down to singing they actually kinda suck.
On the flipside, I wonder if Ed knows any of the stuff you know about (vocal notes and whatnot), or if he just sings and it is what it is. It's obvious, at least to me, that it's his tone that carries him. That's not something you can really "learn".
I think he probably knows a bit more now then he did early in his career. It just seems like he is trying to "sing" more now.
As to the critic comment-
I have several acquaintances that chose art history as a course of study. Most of them wish they were proficient in fine art but they just lack ability, skill, talent, whatever you want to call it. They however find extreme joy and passion in studying art, the artists and the conditions in which the pieces were created. Their lack of artistic ability doesn't hinder their ability to understand, analyze , appreciate or criticize the art. In fact a lot of the time its those people that notice the nuances within a work.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Wed October 16, 2013 10:27 pm
by fishbob
Release_Me wrote:
Nice attempt. You sang it loud but not as high. Ed reaches B4 in the highest parts of the live version which I note checked, while the remaining verse was between A4 and B4. Your attempt sounds to be in the G4/A4 area. Listen, even I can attempt something and upload a file. I put it on a pedestal because it is extremely hard to sing it as well as Ed does. Anyone can
attempt it. It's the
execution of it that matters. Yes, he gets paid for it because he's good at it. And you have your own day job.
He reached a clean B4 in chest voice in that chorus, maybe higher (I checked only the live version, not studio yet). You don't get points for attempting it otherwise I've sung LROM and Say Hello To Heaven just as good as the originals. Until my wife told me I sucked at singing and then I realised it only sounded good in my head. Dissident is easier for Ed to sing because grittiness comes naturally to him. Only that last clean note (D5) is difficult and that is sung in head voice so it's not really comparable to the B4 here which is sung in chest. They are different registers. For a low baritone like Ed, singing clean with chest in upper fourth octave for an entire verse/chorus is extremely impressive. You don't need to take my word for it, ask a professional vocalist.
Cornell songs mostly utilise head voice in the fifth octave which is something non-singers don't use at all so of course it will sound un-obtainable. It is a skill which has to be learnt. However, singing in upper fourth octave in chest as Ed does here is a different challenge and something equally difficult for baritones. It's easier if they scream or shout it like Ed does in many other PJ songs. This is a difficult style for him to pull off and he hasn't really done it much before. Cornell is a vastly superior technician than Ed but even he blew his voice with Audioslave trying to constantly belt upper fourth octave notes on their albums/tours. He didn't have such issues when he was wailing in the fifth octave in head voice with SG in the early years. Point being, it's a difficult vocal for anyone but especially for Ed who happens to be a low baritone with a voice that rests naturally lower than yours anyway.
Haha thanks, I think my point was that it can be done. Obviously not everyone is Eddie but I don't think it is as hard as you were making it out to be. I definitely think Eddie has more impressive songs vocally, and certainly ones that don't allow for such a steady warm-up before they get to the difficult sections (I'd say Dissident is a pretty good example of a fairly relentless Eddie vocal cut). As far as the actual notes I was hitting, I've got no idea what they were. The differences may also be me singing to my guitar, rather than the exact key of the song, who knows, maybe I should tune better. But yeah I'm a drummer/guitarist by trade, singing is fun! Just took it as a challenge, and glad I tried.
Anyway I've listened to myself sing more than anybody else in the world, I know there are times when I can't even get to high notes without coughing up a lung (if you guys know a technique to help this, please let me know as it drives me mad) and this wasn't too bad in that regard.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Wed October 16, 2013 10:51 pm
by Yellow Ledbetter
harmless wrote:Lounge Lizard wrote:Very good song, Infallible.
It's not meant to be TC part 2.
It's entirely different and it's very, very good.
Agreed.
Perfect
Re: Infallible
Posted: Wed October 16, 2013 10:59 pm
by harmless
CupidStunt wrote:harmless wrote:I think returning to the intro in the outro pretty much snatches this song from the jaws of defeat.
Really? I think going back to the intro musically really helps it, just think Ed needs to keep quiet there.
Yeah, I can see why you'd say that. There's too much yeah yeah yeahing at the end of the last chorus, but I don't mind the verse line being repeated once; I think it's a good, ominous line and ends the song in a slightly sombre place rather than keeping it up at the "happy place".
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 12:07 am
by nachosgrande
i hate this song. the chorus is so saccharin. reminds me of one of those young chick pseudo-rockers like Avril Lavigne. biggest dud on the album imo.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 12:13 am
by evenslow
nachosgrande wrote:i hate this song. the chorus is so saccharin. reminds me of one of those young chick pseudo-rockers like Avril Lavigne. biggest dud on the album imo.
You should probably start a discussion with deepdishpizza44 about this.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 12:25 am
by nachosgrande
evenslow wrote:nachosgrande wrote:i hate this song. the chorus is so saccharin. reminds me of one of those young chick pseudo-rockers like Avril Lavigne. biggest dud on the album imo.
You should probably start a discussion with deepdishpizza44 about this.
lol. despite the similarity in junk food monikers, i'm not a troll. like the album a ton; even some of the more maligned tracks (LTRP, Sirens, Future Days). i just can't stand Infallible. chorus is way too poppy.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 3:32 am
by i got bugs
underrated
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 10:54 am
by stip
surprisingly underrated. I think this is one of the most interesting songs on the record.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 12:10 pm
by harmless
The chorus isn't bad. It just doesn't make sense, after that verse / pre-chorus. I have to assume that it would make sense given the right arrangement / instrumentation / more guitars / less BoB / no stupid pop backing vocals. This frustrates me a great detail. When Pearl Jam played this song together in a room, it probably made perfect sense, it just doesn't here.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 12:12 pm
by harmless
So all in all, I think stip is right. But I also think the naysayers are right.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 12:21 pm
by harmless
Our shit's come in, and it's stinking.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 12:37 pm
by Thejambi
harmless wrote:So all in all, I think stip is right. But I also think the naysayers are right.
How's the view from the fence?
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 12:39 pm
by harmless
Thejambi wrote:harmless wrote:So all in all, I think stip is right. But I also think the naysayers are right.
How's the view from the fence?
It's good. But it's also not good. But that's OK, isn't it? All you need is love.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 12:41 pm
by Thejambi
harmless wrote:Thejambi wrote:harmless wrote:So all in all, I think stip is right. But I also think the naysayers are right.
How's the view from the fence?
It's good. But it's also not good. But that's OK, isn't it? All you need is love.
My soul has been saved.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 12:43 pm
by harmless
Thejambi wrote:harmless wrote:Thejambi wrote:harmless wrote:So all in all, I think stip is right. But I also think the naysayers are right.
How's the view from the fence?
It's good. But it's also not good. But that's OK, isn't it? All you need is love.
My soul has been saved.
Meh... I still like this song, and I guess I'm getting used to the chorus. I do like the theme, the lyrics, lots of the lines. I would take more of the song than I'd leave. PJ have had songs like that before (In Hiding, MFC).
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 1:00 pm
by Release_Me
In reply to the earlier comment about me sucking at singing, I don't really know. I just don't sing very well. It's not like I've given it a lot of effort either. I'm more a listener and like to analyse vocals for their technical and other aspects. I don't have a bad tone and my low notes aren't too shabby. But when I try to sing higher than mid-range, I really struggle.
About the song in general, I agree that Ed has better overall performances (a handful but not too many). It's the section before the solo and then the outro where he stretches himself and pulls off something he hasn't really attempted earlier in his career. Dissident is mostly in Ed's comfort range because he has a naturally gritty tone when he sings high. That particular note at the end though is extremely impressive. LROM is overall a huge vocal for anyone, especially Ed with his low baritone. Release is a song which explores his low end as well as his upper fourth octave belts and is one of his most memorable performances. Some of his live improvs in the early days were also very impressive. As far as studio performances go, there have been some out and out screamfests which certainly are difficult (Blood, STBC, etc.) but not technically that impressive. This one has an extended section of great singing by anyone's standards which is why I highlighted it.
And I wouldn't like to change anything about this song. Still loving it more and more with each listen.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 1:07 pm
by Thejambi
harmless wrote:Thejambi wrote:harmless wrote:Thejambi wrote:harmless wrote:So all in all, I think stip is right. But I also think the naysayers are right.
How's the view from the fence?
It's good. But it's also not good. But that's OK, isn't it? All you need is love.
My soul has been saved.
Meh... I still like this song, and I guess I'm getting used to the chorus. I do like the theme, the lyrics, lots of the lines. I would take more of the song than I'd leave. PJ have had songs like that before (In Hiding, MFC).
It satisfies where my musical interests are now. Fairly interesting verses with good rhythm, nice lyrics and a singable chorus melody.
Re: Infallible
Posted: Thu October 17, 2013 1:11 pm
by Release_Me
And I'm sure Ed, being in the game for 20 plus years now, knows about vocal technique. Whether he has studied the theory doesn't really matter but he knows about the practical aspects. He knows how to sing to preserve his voice for tours, how to manage high notes without shredding his chords and how to maintain power and resonance through most of his range. He is self taught for sure but I'm pretty sure he has a vocal coach. Almost impossibe to stay as good as he is still without all that.
