I think the only way in which color would play a role here is if you believe that in modern day America, entire races are indeed suppressed to the point they don't have the same opportunities to succeed as others.
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:28 pm
by tragabigzanda
tragabigzanda wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:Top 10 maybe?
Hello Morning
Close Captioned
The Kill
Place/Position
Do You Like Me?
Latest Disgrace
Recap Modotti
Nightshop
Break
Life & Limb
I'd maybe bump Life & Limb for Epic Problem
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:29 pm
by Norah
breaking: midwestern white guy thinks racial inequality is a bunch of bullshit
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:29 pm
by tree_
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:And in holding this idea, I do not appreciate being seen as a white man with white man opinions any more than I would as a black man.
You're slipping into Rachel Dolezal territory here: "From the comfort of my entire life as a white man, let me pretend for a moment what I would feel if I were a black man."
Just because I'm white doesn't mean you know me and the unique challenges I've faced as a human being.
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:30 pm
by tragabigzanda
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:32 pm
by tree_
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:And in holding this idea, I do not appreciate being seen as a white man with white man opinions any more than I would as a black man.
You're slipping into Rachel Dolezal territory here: "From the comfort of my entire life as a white man, let me pretend for a moment what I would feel if I were a black man."
Just because I'm white doesn't mean you know me and the unique challenges I've faced as a human being.
So what? I can guarantee they're nothing like the typical black male experience.
I don't know this, but if it were entirely true should it change ones goal to hold individual identity more highly than that of group identity? Wouldn't this help solve the problem?
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:32 pm
by run2death
tree_ wrote:And in holding this idea, I do not appreciate being seen as a white man with white man opinions any more than I would as a black man.
LOL
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:33 pm
by tragabigzanda
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:36 pm
by tree_
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:And in holding this idea, I do not appreciate being seen as a white man with white man opinions any more than I would as a black man.
You're slipping into Rachel Dolezal territory here: "From the comfort of my entire life as a white man, let me pretend for a moment what I would feel if I were a black man."
Just because I'm white doesn't mean you know me and the unique challenges I've faced as a human being.
So what? I can guarantee they're nothing like the typical black male experience.
I don't know this, but if it were entirely true should it change ones goal to hold individual identity more highly than that of group identity? Wouldn't this help solve the problem?
Sorry, I've read this four times and don't understand what you're saying.
If it is true that the typical black man faces more challenges than I have in my life (no way of knowing), does this change the point that I'm arguing: The goal should be to view people more as who they are as individuals and less as which group they belong to, hopefully to the point where group identity is no longer a thing.
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:42 pm
by epilogue
tree_ wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:And in holding this idea, I do not appreciate being seen as a white man with white man opinions any more than I would as a black man.
You're slipping into Rachel Dolezal territory here: "From the comfort of my entire life as a white man, let me pretend for a moment what I would feel if I were a black man."
Just because I'm white doesn't mean you know me and the unique challenges I've faced as a human being.
So what? I can guarantee they're nothing like the typical black male experience.
I don't know this, but if it were entirely true should it change ones goal to hold individual identity more highly than that of group identity? Wouldn't this help solve the problem?
Sorry, I've read this four times and don't understand what you're saying.
If it is true that the typical black man faces more challenges than I have in my life (no way of knowing), does this change the point that I'm arguing: The goal should be to view people more as who they are as individuals and less as which group they belong to, hopefully to the point where group identity is no longer a thing.
Wait, are you talking about how individuals are viewed by others or are you talking about an individual's own ideas versus that of the ideas held by a group the individual belongs to?
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:42 pm
by Kaius
You have to learn to walk before you can run, tree_
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:43 pm
by tree_
durdencommatyler wrote:
tree_ wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:
tree_ wrote:And in holding this idea, I do not appreciate being seen as a white man with white man opinions any more than I would as a black man.
You're slipping into Rachel Dolezal territory here: "From the comfort of my entire life as a white man, let me pretend for a moment what I would feel if I were a black man."
Just because I'm white doesn't mean you know me and the unique challenges I've faced as a human being.
So what? I can guarantee they're nothing like the typical black male experience.
I don't know this, but if it were entirely true should it change ones goal to hold individual identity more highly than that of group identity? Wouldn't this help solve the problem?
Sorry, I've read this four times and don't understand what you're saying.
If it is true that the typical black man faces more challenges than I have in my life (no way of knowing), does this change the point that I'm arguing: The goal should be to view people more as who they are as individuals and less as which group they belong to, hopefully to the point where group identity is no longer a thing.
Wait, are you talking about how individuals are viewed by others or are you talking about an individual's own ideas versus that of the ideas held by a group the individual belongs to?
Both.
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:43 pm
by tragabigzanda
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:50 pm
by epilogue
While I think there's a little more nuance(I know, you don't believe I know what that is or that it even exists) to the Al Franken situation, specifically, I'm basically team trag.
Please don't read this as some sort of dismissive response, either. I just don't have much to add to or argue with regarding what he said above.
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:52 pm
by tragabigzanda
tragabigzanda wrote:
tragabigzanda wrote:Top 10 maybe?
Hello Morning
Close Captioned
The Kill
Place/Position
Do You Like Me?
Latest Disgrace
Recap Modotti
Nightshop
Break
Life & Limb
I'd maybe bump Life & Limb for Epic Problem
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:52 pm
by tree_
tragabigzanda wrote:1. I'm not suggesting your suffering is +/- a typical black man's, only that they are inherently different.
2. Your thoughts on group vs. personal identity feels very black-and-white to me; it feels like an ideology. I don't get down with ideologies; I prefer the right attitude for the right time. Example: A large group of women saying "#MeToo! This behavior has to stop!" is a great step for all women; but the political and media assault on Sen. Al Franken felt completely disingenuous given the details of the accusations against him. That right there is a time where the group preceded the individual, and I think the world is a worse place for it.
I would argue that most peoples' sort of suffering is inherently different, based upon a variety of factors, skin color being only one.
You're right, I don't know much about the state of culture or the world and the specific steps to fix big problems. I try to figure out the best goals to be as healthy and happy an individual as possible and I think despite the state of my life and how closely I get to achieving them, good ideas are still good and bad are still bad, and it's important to constantly seek the good ones out and refine them as best as possible, my tool being personal experience, mostly. As I said before, I don't think viewing my opinions 'from the mouth of a white man' is any more fair than 'from the mouth of a black man' and I think these are harmful and unproductive.
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 4:58 pm
by epilogue
But you are a white man. Your opinions are formed, at least in part, by your being a white man. There's nothing wrong with taking that into account when looking at your opinions.
Re: Kendrick Lamar is better than Soundgarden
Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 5:04 pm
by tree_
durdencommatyler wrote:But you are a white man. Your opinions are formed, at least in part, by your being a white man. There's nothing wrong with taking that into account when looking at your opinions.
Taken into account, sure, but the level of account to which it is taken should depend on the whole shape of influences determining my opinions, and for all you know, I've studied, in depth, what it is to be a black man in America (hypothetical, I haven't). Experience isn't everything, and isn't necessarily a reconcilable factor.