Red Mosquito

Heathen wrote:I knew of the 12 step thing but I had no idea it was filled with so much religious bullshit.

It's not really religious-- one could interpret it as being spiritual, but a lot of people take the "higher power" to be something other than the theistic God. It could be a higher purpose, everything in the universe they have no control over, or something more concrete like their community or family. Apparently it really helps recovering alcoholics to surrender to something greater than themselves.

Here's a beautiful essay by Roger Ebert which addresses this issue: http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2009/08 ... n_alc.html

Sure, one could always interpret it that way. But if they call it God maybe it's because they actually mean 'God'.

Well, they say "a god as I understand it". Even so, it doesn't make it religious but spiritual. Pretty big distinction. It doesn't really matter, anyway, if it's helping people.

theplatypus wrote:Well, they say "a god as I understand it". Even so, it doesn't make it religious but spiritual. Pretty big distinction. It doesn't really matter, anyway, if it's helping people.

It's subtle but "God as we understood Him" isn't exactly the same as "a god as I understand it".

Anyway, while I don't agree about subjacent aspects of anything not mattering as long as it's helping people, this is not a big deal indeed, I was just surprised by it. I guess I shouldn't have been, after all we're talking about a country that has "In God We Trust" for its motto.

Sure. It looks like the lines from Reid's post are slightly misquoted (the post says "a god as we understood him" while most everywhere else it says "God as we understood Him"-- I agree, it's an important distinction). Mostly I was objecting calling the steps 'religious', since I don't feel they're tied to a particular doctrine. Who are you, anyway?

Also,

1. We admit we are powerless over alcohol: Centro-Matic - With Respect To Alcohol
2. We come to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity: Pearl Jam - Inside Job
3. We make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a god as we understood him: Leonard Cohen - If It Be Your Will
4. We make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves: The Beach Boys - Long Promised Road
5. We admit to our god, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs: Magnolia Electric Co. - Riding with the Ghost
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character: Foo Fighters - Learn to Fly
7. We humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings: Joe Walsh - I Like Big Tits
8. We make a list of all persons we have harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all: Leon Payne- Psycho

theplatypus wrote:Who are you, anyway?

God

Heathen wrote:

theplatypus wrote:Who are you, anyway?

God

I understand you.

I wish I could say the same about you mortals

1. We admit we are powerless over alcohol: Centro-Matic - With Respect To Alcohol
2. We come to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity: Pearl Jam - Inside Job
3. We make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a god as we understood him: Leonard Cohen - If It Be Your Will
4. We make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves: The Beach Boys - Long Promised Road
5. We admit to our god, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs: Magnolia Electric Co. - Riding with the Ghost
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character: Foo Fighters - Learn to Fly
7. We humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings: Joe Walsh - I Like Big Tits
8. We make a list of all persons we have harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all: Leon Payne- Psycho
9. We make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others: Nirvana - All Apologies

knee tunes wrote: 7. We humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings Joe Walsh - I Like Big Tits

I like this Heathen person god.

jorge wrote: It doesn't really matter, anyway, if it's helping people.

this

Did this thread die?

1. We admit we are powerless over alcohol: Centro-Matic - With Respect To Alcohol
2. We come to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity: Pearl Jam - Inside Job
3. We make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a god as we understood him: Leonard Cohen - If It Be Your Will
4. We make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves: The Beach Boys - Long Promised Road
5. We admit to our god, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs: Magnolia Electric Co. - Riding with the Ghost
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character: Foo Fighters - Learn to Fly
7. We humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings: Joe Walsh - I Like Big Tits
8. We make a list of all persons we have harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all: Leon Payne- Psycho
9. We make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others: Nirvana - All Apologies
10. We continue to take personal inventory, and when we are wrong, promptly admitted it: Adele - I'll Be Waiting

1. We admit we are powerless over alcohol: Centro-Matic - With Respect To Alcohol
2. We come to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity: Pearl Jam - Inside Job
3. We make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a god as we understood him: Leonard Cohen - If It Be Your Will
4. We make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves: The Beach Boys - Long Promised Road
5. We admit to our god, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs: Magnolia Electric Co. - Riding with the Ghost
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character: Foo Fighters - Learn to Fly
7. We humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings: Joe Walsh - I Like Big Tits
8. We make a list of all persons we have harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all: Leon Payne- Psycho
9. We make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others: Nirvana - All Apologies
10. We continue to take personal inventory, and when we are wrong, promptly admitted it: Adele - I'll Be Waiting
11. We seek through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with our god as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out: A Perfect Circle - "Weak and Powerless"

1. We admit we are powerless over alcohol: Centro-Matic - With Respect To Alcohol
2. We come to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity: Pearl Jam - Inside Job
3. We make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of a god as we understood him: Leonard Cohen - If It Be Your Will
4. We make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves: The Beach Boys - Long Promised Road
5. We admit to our god, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs: Magnolia Electric Co. - Riding with the Ghost
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character: Foo Fighters - Learn to Fly
7. We humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings: Joe Walsh - I Like Big Tits
8. We make a list of all persons we have harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all: Leon Payne- Psycho
9. We make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others: Nirvana - All Apologies
10. We continue to take personal inventory, and when we are wrong, promptly admitted it: Adele - I'll Be Waiting
11. We seek through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with our god as we understood him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out: A Perfect Circle - "Weak and Powerless"
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we try to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs: U2 - Tomorrow

OK, next theme...Songs about Winter or Snow (since I'm in a snow storm now). Winter or Snow can be either in the title or in the lyrics.

1. White Winter - Fleet Foxes

1. White Winter - Fleet Foxes
2. January Hymn- The Decemberists

1. White Winter - Fleet Foxes
2. January Hymn- The Decemberists
3. Snow (Hey, Oh) - RHCP

1. White Winter - Fleet Foxes
2. January Hymn- The Decemberists
3. Snow (Hey, Oh) - RHCP
4. California Dreamin' - Mamas & the Papas