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Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 3:48 pm
by stip
McParadigm wrote:"Innocence" is actually just a state of moral purity. It can be associated with a lack of knowledge (how biblical...) or not, but it absolutely is a romanticized concept and essentially just a way of selling escapism as somehow virtuous.
I agree with you until your final clause, which overlooks the fact that this need to feel like you can start over (even knowing full well you can't) is a powerful existential need felt by almost all people. It can of course manifest itself in superficial ways, but the same is true of every human need and emotion
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 3:51 pm
by McParadigm
stip wrote:McParadigm wrote:"Innocence" is actually just a state of moral purity. It can be associated with a lack of knowledge (how biblical...) or not, but it absolutely is a romanticized concept and essentially just a way of selling escapism as somehow virtuous.
I agree with you until your final clause, which overlooks the fact that this need to feel like you can start over (even knowing full well you can't) is a powerful existential need felt by almost all people. It can of course manifest itself in superficial ways, but the same is true of every human need and emotion
The desire (not need) to feel like you can start over is therapeutic, yes. But you can't start over, and the movie is only helping you to pretend the feeling, so it's still just escapism.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 3:51 pm
by @SkitchP
Never before have I longed for laser cannon specs, but here we are.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 3:53 pm
by McParadigm
And to be fair, stip, I haven't claimed that escapism is a negative thing. I only pointed out that people use the term "innocence" to try and imbue it with the quality that it does not have.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 3:54 pm
by LoathedVermin72
stip wrote:McParadigm wrote:"Innocence" is actually just a state of moral purity. It can be associated with a lack of knowledge (how biblical...) or not, but it absolutely is a romanticized concept and essentially just a way of selling escapism as somehow virtuous.
I agree with you until your final clause, which overlooks the fact that this need to feel like you can start over (even knowing full well you can't) is a powerful existential need felt by almost all people. It can of course manifest itself in superficial ways, but the same is true of every human need and emotion
I can safely say I have never felt such a need or desire. Like McP said, that's escapism. Escapism, contrary to popular belief, is by no means a profound existential need - it is meretricious distraction.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 3:56 pm
by stip
McParadigm wrote:A lot of the time I think stuff like this comes down to identity, actually. We use the things we like, and the things we don't, to help build a construct in our minds that is "me." For entertainment's sake, this includes both subjects within media types (Pearl Jam fan, Star Wars nerd), and which types of media we pursue (movie geek, gamer, YouTuber).
If something like Star Wars or Pearl Jam is a part of how you've built your understanding of your self, then it's a different kind of bond than for those of us for whom it is not. And neither side of this equation is inherently capable of understanding the other, because we're both saying Star Wars, but were sort of talking about two different things.
True, but this post indicates you can intellectually understand an experience even if you can't feel it - which makes it understandable and something you can have a conversation about
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 3:58 pm
by stip
McParadigm wrote:stip wrote:McParadigm wrote:"Innocence" is actually just a state of moral purity. It can be associated with a lack of knowledge (how biblical...) or not, but it absolutely is a romanticized concept and essentially just a way of selling escapism as somehow virtuous.
I agree with you until your final clause, which overlooks the fact that this need to feel like you can start over (even knowing full well you can't) is a powerful existential need felt by almost all people. It can of course manifest itself in superficial ways, but the same is true of every human need and emotion
The desire (not need) to feel like you can start over is therapeutic, yes. But you can't start over, and the movie is only helping you to pretend the feeling, so it's still just escapism.
The point isn't to start over - it is to leave feeling like you could. It's intangible, but no less real for it
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 3:59 pm
by stip
I need to corral the kids for lunch and trick or treating. I look forward to catching up when I get back
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:00 pm
by stip
And maybe make a post on an actual keyboard
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:04 pm
by LoathedVermin72
stip wrote:McParadigm wrote:stip wrote:McParadigm wrote:"Innocence" is actually just a state of moral purity. It can be associated with a lack of knowledge (how biblical...) or not, but it absolutely is a romanticized concept and essentially just a way of selling escapism as somehow virtuous.
I agree with you until your final clause, which overlooks the fact that this need to feel like you can start over (even knowing full well you can't) is a powerful existential need felt by almost all people. It can of course manifest itself in superficial ways, but the same is true of every human need and emotion
The desire (not need) to feel like you can start over is therapeutic, yes. But you can't start over, and the movie is only helping you to pretend the feeling, so it's still just escapism.
The point isn't to start over - it is to leave feeling like you could. It's intangible, but no less real for it
But why is that good or valuable? As McP already noted, you can't start over, so this is merely escapism. Art's purpose is to help us understand, feel, transcend. To help us confront reality, not remove us from it.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:07 pm
by epilogue
Art has a many purposes. And one of them is to help people escape. You can't define art only by the terms you prefer.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:10 pm
by epilogue
LoathedVermin72 wrote:stip wrote:McParadigm wrote:"Innocence" is actually just a state of moral purity. It can be associated with a lack of knowledge (how biblical...) or not, but it absolutely is a romanticized concept and essentially just a way of selling escapism as somehow virtuous.
I agree with you until your final clause, which overlooks the fact that this need to feel like you can start over (even knowing full well you can't) is a powerful existential need felt by almost all people. It can of course manifest itself in superficial ways, but the same is true of every human need and emotion
I can safely say I have never felt such a need or desire. Like McP said, that's escapism. Escapism, contrary to popular belief, is by no means a profound existential need - it is meretricious distraction.
For a person who claims art is meant to help one understand and transcend, you seem pretty closed off in your own experience and anecdotal evidence. Just because you so proudly have never experienced this sensation doesn't mean other people don't or haven't. And more importantly, that it's invalid if they have.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:14 pm
by LoathedVermin72
Fundamentally, how is escaping from reality a good thing?
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:15 pm
by epilogue
Fundamentally, how is it a bad thing?
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:15 pm
by stip
LoathedVermin72 wrote:stip wrote:McParadigm wrote:stip wrote:McParadigm wrote:"Innocence" is actually just a state of moral purity. It can be associated with a lack of knowledge (how biblical...) or not, but it absolutely is a romanticized concept and essentially just a way of selling escapism as somehow virtuous.
I agree with you until your final clause, which overlooks the fact that this need to feel like you can start over (even knowing full well you can't) is a powerful existential need felt by almost all people. It can of course manifest itself in superficial ways, but the same is true of every human need and emotion
The desire (not need) to feel like you can start over is therapeutic, yes. But you can't start over, and the movie is only helping you to pretend the feeling, so it's still just escapism.
The point isn't to start over - it is to leave feeling like you could. It's intangible, but no less real for it
But why is that good or valuable? As McP already noted, you can't start over, so this is merely escapism. Art's purpose is to help us understand, feel, transcend. To help us confront reality, not remove us from it.
If this movie is good Strat will leave the theater feeling a bit better about himself, a bit better about the world, and thinking that more is possible than it was before he went in.
no small thing
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:18 pm
by stip
LoathedVermin72 wrote:Fundamentally, how is escaping from reality a good thing?
If it helps you cope with reality it's a good thing.
If it renews you so you're more prepared to engage it then it's a great thing
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:18 pm
by swan
I'm as excited for TFA as any movie in a very long time, and I do enjoy Kevin Smith's Star Wars fanboy blubbering most of the time. However, I have to point out that he made a similar but much longer post back in 2005 that fellated Episode III to no end. He talked about how perfectly it delivered the climax of the story, how it made him cry, etc., etc., etc. So, let's remember to take everything with a grain of salt.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:20 pm
by LoathedVermin72
stip wrote:LoathedVermin72 wrote:Fundamentally, how is escaping from reality a good thing?
If it helps you cope with reality it's a good thing.
If it renews you so you're more prepared to engage it then it's a great thing
If it's giving you tools to deal with reality than it is not removing you from it in the first place.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:23 pm
by B
This thread is going a long way toward making this movie less exciting for me. You guys are good at killing joy.
Re: Star Wars: Episode VII: The Force Awakens (2015)
Posted: Sat October 31, 2015 4:23 pm
by LoathedVermin72
durdencommatyler wrote:Fundamentally, how is it a bad thing?
This seems fairly self-evident to me? Time spent removing yourself from reality is time spent stagnating, distancing yourself from your emotion, intelligence, and ideology. It is, essentially, wasted time.